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Old 07-30-2012, 10:19 PM   #68 (permalink)
P0E
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: P0E

Quote:
Originally Posted by uv_halo View Post
...
So, why do you think they've been so late to getting this product in even a limited number of customer's hands? I'm guessing either a lack of investment or, manufacturing problems.

Obviously I can't comment on the why since I have no first hand experience with either process. Although given that Paul is claiming comparable prices with 'attractive' margins to field owners, I think we can easily say the Hydrotec process results in a significantly cheaper product than anything Tom Kaye tried. My hat's off to them there.

Why do I think they haven't released small volumes to the public for test, review and general PR? No idea. Maybe because they didn't want real testing to show it is a poor performer before they started selling product. Maybe because they were not prepared for the production problems that popped up and are still scrambling to get product out the door. Maybe their investors require them not to release any samples until the product is rolling off the line (common).


Given that I'm adjunct member of the Punkworks team, and that they (Bryce and Cockerpunk) turn to me for External Ballistics calculations, I can say with certainty that they understand the ballsitic performance issues associated with the higher caliber/lower density round.


They are gradually understanding the importance, but still don't fully appreciate it IHMO. Recommendations for measuring average ball mass were claimed to be pedantic early on. I noted the degree to which a paintball's mass fluctuates and about a dozen tests later average paintball mass only shows up on the standard efficiency test as 'optional' data. (BTW it's as easy as weighing a bag and dividing by the ball count). They are forming hypothesis while the mass data could completely change the results.


Here are numbers I've posted previously over there:

.683, 3g DXS Silver ball
Maximum Range: 94 Yards

.686 2.62gram Ball:
Maximum Range: 86yards

If I can make a suggestion for those charts... Use a logarithmic scale. Only the extremes are easily viewable.

What nobody knows is how fragile the rounds are. That would allow for a direct comparison to put the impact force in perspective. For example, are hydrotec rounds ~23% more fragile, thereby making up for the ~23% difference in impact energy at a given range. Theoretically, it could be that Hydrotec rounds are fragile enough that they break more often than the heavier ball at extended ranges.

As I stated earlier, I hope this is the case. Due to what the fill is, I can see how it would react differently to different targets.

e.g. Traditional paint might break on a wood plank at 20fps and a soft mouse pad at 40fps... while the Hydrotec breaks on the wood plank at 10fps, but requires 50fps to break on the soft mouse pad.


My personal question about these rounds pertain to the shell material. With FS rounds and they higher ridigity and fragility, when they break, the edges of the broken shell can be somewhat jagged that combined with the rigidity, leads to a slightly higher amount of skin cutting/scratching on impact to bare skin(extremely minor in my opinon). I wonder how hydrotec's shell performs in this regard.

Very good point.

As far as hydrotec ronds encouraging spray and pray, I would say so if the cost was cheaper than current FPO prices. Simply put, the constraints of a limited weight, spherical projectile will always suck enough that accuracy through volume will be be the easiest means of getting an elimination.

That's why I placed ALONE in bold. Assuming it was the SAME price as today's FPO, yet performed slightly worse and it's only redeeming quality was that the field owners saw a larger margin.... I can see most field owners only stocking 'high end' traditional paint ..and Hydrotec. Volume on traditional paint drops, high end gets more expensive, those shooting the Hydrotec get shot frequently by those who can afford the good stuff. Chineese knock-offs start producing even worse performing 'White box Hydrotec'. I'm sure they're already trying to figure out how they can half-*** it with existing tooling.
Horizon,

As I understand it, you have a unique business model? More quality versus quantity so-to-speak? Maybe you would see no benefits.

P.S. Personally I would love to see more fields that are rental only with one brand of paint. Everyone on the same level completely eliminates any concern over caliber, weight, ROF, ramping, etc. Not every field mind you, just a few here and there geared to the beginner who doesn't mind waiting a few weeks for a group to build up.... or those of us who got busy with life.

Last edited by P0E; 07-30-2012 at 10:27 PM.
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