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Old 10-16-2010, 05:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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x valve problems

quoted from my new toy thread:

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Originally Posted by SN toter View Post
Man, I have to talk myself out of every one I see. Classic RTs are my favorite markers if all time!

Could be either a worn sear or if the pin is sheared that will do it.
I swapped in the sear from the rt classic which is the carbide topped type. Its not worn. My old one has a flat spot where the sharp point is but thetop edge is still sharp.

Same issue with both, no RT

The on/off pin is not sheared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider! View Post
The stock on/off pin should be .750". A good sear will sometimes tolerate short pins in the neighborhood of .700", depending on the thicknesses on the rail, body, etc. Less than that gets iffy quickly.

For RT'ing, I check four places in the valve. The top on/off o-ring needs/likes to be relatively fresh urethane. Teflon tends to be too stiff. The on/off body o-ring can be dry or old, making the pin movement stiff (an easy check with your fingers). The reg pin and o-rings need to be in good shape; that action/flow is where the RT kick is coming from. Last, the reg piston should be free to move. A lot of people replace their o-ring, but never clean out the five years of oil residue on the cylinder walls. Slick that puppy up!

I usually push all that around with my fingers to see that it is smooth running.

When you check the sear tip, check the sides for rub marks on the rail and check the movement on the pin.

Just treat it like the little race engine it is.
I measured the on/off pin at .749 so it seems pretty darn close to factory spec. Nowhere near badly worn.

All seals are brand new out of a new AGD rebuild kit. Complete teardown and cleaning ( I even managed to get a qtip tip stuck in the valve chamber for a minute lol). It RT's like crazy for the first few minutes and then decreases to the point of no RT. Tore it down again and checked everything again. No problems and no difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
Replace the on/off top oring(s).

A fresh oring is tighter than the old ones you replaced on the RT pro. Unless you have changed the on/off pin to a longer one, once you break in the new oring it should start RTing more you. If you dont want to wait for that, take that on/off top and on/off middle oring, and put them on an allen wrench to loosen them up some. Be generous with the lube also.
I just replaced them as noted above. I find it strange that it RT's really well when I first gas it up with nw rings then it dies off. I didn't try stretching the orings yet. I ran out of gas so that will have to wait until tommorow.

I did notice that it is hard to pul the pin out with just my fingers, I really have to work it a lot to pop it out. It almost always comes out with the oring on the end of it.

I'm going to try swapping out the ASA as well, just in case its starving. Again tommorrow when I have more air.
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Old 10-16-2010, 07:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
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You may be shooting out the oil, or it may be getting warmed up around the reg and expanding a bit. Try giving it a chance to cool and test it. RT's do warm up. If that doesn't help, give it some more oil. If that works, do it some more 'til it wears in. Which brings us to the epic question;

"what are you lubing your mag with?"

I like superlube multipurpose in my RTs. Extreme rage lube would work like you describe, a few minutes.

You may instead be having a similar problem with your bottle reg. What do you have there?
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Old 10-16-2010, 08:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider! View Post
You may be shooting out the oil, or it may be getting warmed up around the reg and expanding a bit. Try giving it a chance to cool and test it. RT's do warm up. If that doesn't help, give it some more oil. If that works, do it some more 'til it wears in. Which brings us to the epic question;

"what are you lubing your mag with?"

I like superlube multipurpose in my RTs. Extreme rage lube would work like you describe, a few minutes.

You may instead be having a similar problem with your bottle reg. What do you have there?
Its goldcup I believe.

It doesn't RT when I gas it up, it RT's for a few minutes the first time ( only) after I put new on / off top orings in it. Then never again. It never really warms up because it doesn't get a chance to really let a string go.

I always use lots of oil, each and every use it gets 5-6 drops. Its oily whenever I strip it for cleaning.

I have a ninja putting out 1050 psi. I had them shim it for me.

Its not like the last set of orings weren't worked in, it must have had 10k through it.
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Old 10-16-2010, 08:53 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Isn't the geometry of the RT Classic sear slightly different?
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Old 10-16-2010, 08:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Shorter on/off pins help reactivity.

I'd buy a spare and then start taking down the skinny end, tiny bit by tiny bit until you get the reactivity you want. The reason the shorter pin has more reactivity is because it creates less friction with the on/off top o-ring.
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Old 10-16-2010, 09:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onecaribou View Post
Isn't the geometry of the RT Classic sear slightly different?
Apparently they are. However it didn't work any better/worse than the one that was in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by secretweaponevan View Post
Shorter on/off pins help reactivity.

I'd buy a spare and then start taking down the skinny end, tiny bit by tiny bit until you get the reactivity you want. The reason the shorter pin has more reactivity is because it creates less friction with the on/off top o-ring.
I have to buy a parts kit for the classic so I will order a spare pin to mess with.

Any idea on why with a light pull I can get a squishy trigger? Its not really fired, not really reset. I have to fully pull it to be able to fire again. It doesn't fire when it happens it just gives a little short hiss.
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Old 10-16-2010, 09:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dukie View Post
Apparently they are. However it didn't work any better/worse than the one that was in it.



I have to buy a parts kit for the classic so I will order a spare pin to mess with.

Any idea on why with a light pull I can get a squishy trigger? Its not really fired, not really reset. I have to fully pull it to be able to fire again. It doesn't fire when it happens it just gives a little short hiss.
That sounds like it might be bolt stick on your level 10. Maybe too many shims.

The rest sounds good. Does your ASA have good size ports?
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Old 10-16-2010, 10:21 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
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That sounds like it might be bolt stick on your level 10. Maybe too many shims.

The rest sounds good. Does your ASA have good size ports?
The bolt hasn't even moved yet, its more like the trigger has reached a point where it isn't fired and isn't not fired. I don't have to manually reset the bolt, I just have to give the trigger a full pull and the on/off resets. maybe I had better take a video of this. Its not making sense to me the way I am explaining it lol.

I'll remove a shim and see if it helps. There are just the standard 2 in there.

The ASA has standard 1/8" on the outside, I haven't taken it apart to see what its like inside. I just looks like one of those things that will never work right aain after beein taken apart, and I take everything apart lol.
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:03 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Until it all works, just leave the shims out. I think I have three shims scattered across four level 10s.

Check that your bolt moves pretty freely. It should be just tight enough that it doesn't fall off when you tilt it down over your hand. I've had one that I couldn't even feel the seal. It started leaking a tiny bit after a while, but I was impressed that it sealed at all.

Sometimes the o-ring is exactly between carrier sizes, always too tight or too loose. I'll polish the inside with a rod and compound if its a new one with a mold line in it.

I would think a restrictive ASA would not be an intermittent problem. You definitely need to deal with the squishy trigger syndrome before worrying about the RT.

Bolt stick would be typical. I also have to admit that I run most of my level 10s with a stock spring. I use a longer red spring in one classic mag, which has given me a trigger problem before.

Have you chrony'd this marker? I can't remember. You need to have it shooting at or near velocity when poking around with the level 10.
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider! View Post
Until it all works, just leave the shims out. I think I have three shims scattered across four level 10s.

Check that your bolt moves pretty freely. It should be just tight enough that it doesn't fall off when you tilt it down over your hand. I've had one that I couldn't even feel the seal. It started leaking a tiny bit after a while, but I was impressed that it sealed at all.

Sometimes the o-ring is exactly between carrier sizes, always too tight or too loose. I'll polish the inside with a rod and compound if its a new one with a mold line in it.

I would think a restrictive ASA would not be an intermittent problem. You definitely need to deal with the squishy trigger syndrome before worrying about the RT.

Bolt stick would be typical. I also have to admit that I run most of my level 10s with a stock spring. I use a longer red spring in one classic mag, which has given me a trigger problem before.

Have you chrony'd this marker? I can't remember. You need to have it shooting at or near velocity when poking around with the level 10.
I have used it a bunch of times and the level 10 has been working fine ( at field speeds). just to rule it out I put a new oring in and tuned it. No difference. The old oring was damn near brown, ugly looking. It had a slight leak once in a while.

I'm already usin a standard mainspring.
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