mcarterbrown.com  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-06-2013, 07:03 PM   #1 (permalink)
Perfection will suffice
 
Menace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008

Level 7 bolts, efficiency, and force-feed loaders

Gang,

All this recent talk of bolts has got me thinking.

Have seen some threads that address the comparison of the L10 to the L7 in terms of performance and efficiency, and some that deal minimally with the use of force loaders and the L7, but none that really seem to get very far in terms of real data for either.

So here are two questions for you all:

1. Can anyone give a sense of how much more efficient the L7 bolt is over the L10? I know it isn't a lot, but am still curious. Think of the standard 68/4500 shots per fill measure, all other things being equal (i.e., same barrel, platform, etc.). Please feel free to weigh in if you have some reasonably hard numbers (not guesses).

2. Second, does anyone have direct personal experience with the use of an RT-style valve and the L7 bolt running a high end modern force loader like the Rotor or Prophecy? How many chops do you get, if ever? This includes running at high ROF. Also, don't count accidental chops when firing fast at the bottom of the loader. That is an acceptable risk, and besides, isn't a strike against the loader.

Please don't note bad experiences with Revvies, Fastas, Eggies, Pinokios, etc. They aren't force loaders. The Halo or its infinite varieties would do in a pinch, no pun intended.

Have used the L7 bolts from the beginning, in both short foamy and long non-foamy configurations, and have decent results with them. Maybe one or two breaks in a case if I'm not being careful. Have used the L10 bolt with a Revvy for quite a while now, and have absolutely never, ever chopped a ball with it. Case after case, year after year, it never fails. This tends to either spoil a person, or else cause them to have better standards. Take your pick.

In any case, bolt breaks are simply no longer acceptable. One per day is not acceptable. Maybe one every several cases, but no more than that. A good modern force loader, which can (theoretically) load faster than the mag can cycle, should be able to eliminate all but the most inevitable chops.

What I've noticed is that when using the L10 and a Primo, the bolt never chops, but I get occasional chuffs, probably a dozen or more in a day of play. But with the Revvy, can't recall the bolt ever chuffing, even when really getting on it, which tells me the loader is making sure a ball is always in the chamber.

So if the mag collection continues to grow, it just seems that there might be good financial incentive to stick mainly with L7 bolts if they can be well-fed with a Rotor, since the cost of outfitting every mag in the stables with the L10 can add up mighty quickly.

So what do you all think?

Thanks very kindly.
__________________
"Dude. I'm pretty sure he's behind one of those bunkers over there."



My Feedback: http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html
Menace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 01:48 AM   #2 (permalink)
Post Whore
 
Nobody's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey

nothing hard on figures, but here is what i have:

classic valve on the mag gets rule of thumb with air, 15 shots per cubic inch at 4500 & 10 per at 3K. those are pretty much dead on, depending on your barrel, which i think you could count a deviation of about 1-3%, depending on bore match and porting.

when i put in a L10 in the valve, i had done something wrong and increased my efficiency, up to about 1200 shots on a 68/4500. don't know if the input air pressure was lower(ran it on a Geddon and i tuned it down to about 650psi or so) or i had setup the L10 with a slightly heavier bounce or not the gentleness, with pretty much the same barrels(ran Lapco Bigshot and Autospirits almost exclusively). i haven't run my mag enough to really get a factual count with today's smaller paints or a UL/freak-bored barrels.

though, the only facts on the loader issue i have was off my Eclipse Angel, it was still enough.

when i ran my Angel i used a Halo all the time. i preferred to over feed the gun just to make sure that there was no missed shot. though its a different operation, it is similar in how the bolt is in the breech area. i did suffer from a pinched ball in the breech that resulted in the bolt remaining forward(had to use a straight shot squeegee to free the bolt). i changed out the bolt to a DynaBolt which helped with preventing paint from rolling back in the breech.

i do believe that a true forcefeed loader will work fine with a L7 bolt. remember, Manike on his "Uberloader" tests with a RT Mag was able to feed reliably up to the 40bps range with no breaks. those tests were years before the L10 kit was available. so if you can't L10 your fleet, using a forcefeed loader should help with any missed shots with a L7 bolt.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymcneer View Post
Watching the grass blow in the wind sometimes causes it to shift from red to green to red and keep repeating itself. Makes my acid using friends jealous

Brand New Furious Harnesses for ICD electros
Best place for all things ICD
MCB_feedback
AO_feedback
Nobody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 01:56 AM   #3 (permalink)
Perfection will suffice
 
Menace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008

Thank you, sir! That's helpful to know.

And (putting head down and covering up in preparation for slaps) I've never heard of these tests of Simon's.

Any video or write-ups? Any links?

Thanks again!
__________________
"Dude. I'm pretty sure he's behind one of those bunkers over there."



My Feedback: http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html
Menace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 02:47 AM   #4 (permalink)
Possible Gun Whore
 
need4reebs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Phx, AZ

when using a Revy on a lvl 7 i rarely broke any paint, actually even a gravity fed hopper w/a lvl 7 i rarely broke any paint? only reason i have any lvl 10 bolts is cause they were already on the X-valves. the lvl 10 is a nice upgrade but for a classic valve i dont think its necessary.
need4reebs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 11:39 AM   #5 (permalink)
Post Whore
 
Nobody's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey

i'll see if there is any more info from Simon, or it might be over at AO.

need4reebs: when i use my classic, i can out shoot a revy with no problems. i can hammer on that trigger, the single CF frame to where i would chop. a L10 is needed no matter what. an X needs it because it theoretically can reach insane RoF. but even at its max of 17ish bps for a classic, it can still out shoot a revy. so who wants to take a chance and run without a L10 when you don't have to? it can get expensive but so does trying to find a Dallara for a good price, or talking someone out of their Chord, or heaven forbid, finding that Xmag in the price range of a regular Emag.

as for the L10, i'd rather buy a kit or 2, then piece together a kit for the gun i need than to do without. at least with pumpmags you don't need it. but i would put it on every gun if and when i could. the only thing that would prevent it would be eyes, and even then, its still a good idea to have both, as eyes can still be fooled.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymcneer View Post
Watching the grass blow in the wind sometimes causes it to shift from red to green to red and keep repeating itself. Makes my acid using friends jealous

Brand New Furious Harnesses for ICD electros
Best place for all things ICD
MCB_feedback
AO_feedback
Nobody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 11:46 AM   #6 (permalink)
Perfection will suffice
 
Menace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008

Reebs,

Thanks, and good to know, but remember also that I'm looking for a kind of broad-spectrum solution fix for the mag herd problem. Absolutely love the L10, have never had any of the tuning issues others talk about, and would recommend it to any mag user not running a force-feed loader. It's just that I can't fit every mag I currently own with one, let alone every mag I might own in future, and since chops are a wet blanket, it just seems that a Rotor or the like could allow me to play any of the L7 mags with no worries about chops. And of course, I could use it on other markers as well, etc.

And if an RT with L7 can run clean with a Rotor, then certainly a classic will be clean.

Not to mention if I wish to run an RT with L7 bolt.

EDIT: Oops! Nobody, you snuck in there while I was posting. Sorry to have missed your post, and thanks again for the extra info, and for checking on Simon's testing.
__________________
"Dude. I'm pretty sure he's behind one of those bunkers over there."



My Feedback: http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html

Last edited by Menace; 09-07-2013 at 12:09 PM.
Menace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 12:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
‎Sic itur ad astra
 
Falcon16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: St. Catharines Ontario Canada
Send a message via MSN to Falcon16 Send a message via Skype™ to Falcon16

CCM Fan
Brass N Wood Fan
Palmers Fan
personally never had breaks in any of the mags I've owned level 7 or level 10. With that said I have some unorthodox feed systems I use. My functioning mag pistol (My micro is off at Ratzo's house getting a rebuild) uses a zeus mag that had a very well done solder or job weld job to line it up with the breech. Given it's a springfeed and a pistol I don't normally get on the trigger but when I have to I can empty the springfeed in 2 seconds or less. Never ever had a chop even firing that fast as I guess the springfeed is reliably chambering. Now with that said I know that once my micro is up and running that I'll most likely need to be more careful when I'm shooting it even given I'll have a ball stack from the elbow to my loader I probably won't run force feed as I hate batteries for the most part but I have found that a sportshot with the amount I move feeds just fine.

On the efficiency front I know my mag pistol is good for about 100-120 shots off my 13/3K as I run it vert air. my old classic valved right feed with a Level 10 was fairly efficient I know at one point I shot off about 1/2 a case on a 50/45 full 4500 fill. Personally unless you're playing outlaw ball though the concept of efficiency with all day air being included at most fields is a moot point.
__________________

Feedback +38/-0
Click here to email me
My youtube channel
My downsizing/cleaning house sale





Quote:
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Pump paintball is cheaper than any drug habit I've ever heard of.
Falcon16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 12:17 PM   #8 (permalink)
Perfection will suffice
 
Menace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008

Falcon,

Appreciate the spring feed info. Probably should have included the Qloader in there as well.

And my concern here is not with batteries. I used to snort at them, but no longer (not in the marker, of course; I do have my standards. ). The only important thing is that a ball is in the chamber when the trigger is pulled. If batteries can supply this, goody.
__________________
"Dude. I'm pretty sure he's behind one of those bunkers over there."



My Feedback: http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html
Menace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 02:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
Post Whore
 
Nobody's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey

Falcon: then why the G6R and its 2400+ shots even with all day air? there is a point where yes, all day air makes it moot, but there are some fields that have long lines at the air station, or takes forever to get 4500 fills or even that the play fields are a hike from the air station so its a hassle to get air. so what is an acceptable level for efficiency? shoot your pack then refill? twice your pack?

as for the L10's cost, i think it was somewhere noted on a loss of about 10% or so off the total shot. if i could, i would take a L7 valve and shoot it for a specific number of shots, then do the same with a L10. but always remember that the L10 will die earlier since it can't go deep in the tank, as it needs a higher operating input pressure, so that will cost the tank some more shots.

i wouldn't hesitate putting a spire or halo(don't like Rotors or qloaders, sorry) on a L7 mag.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymcneer View Post
Watching the grass blow in the wind sometimes causes it to shift from red to green to red and keep repeating itself. Makes my acid using friends jealous

Brand New Furious Harnesses for ICD electros
Best place for all things ICD
MCB_feedback
AO_feedback
Nobody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 03:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
Perfection will suffice
 
Menace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008

Nobody, thanks yet again!

Had heard from another good source that the difference is about ten percent, which (duh) makes sense, since the L10 operates at about 10% higher OP.

And I don't mind if you dislike the Rotor.

To me it looks clean and small, seems very well built, and loads fast. But really, it doesn't matter what kind of loader is used, so long as it can shovel paint faster than the mag can eat it.

And I also take your point about efficiency, even if only in small dosages. Even a pod difference in a tank is still a pod difference, and I hate having to constantly check the tank to see where I'm at, especially on days with tons of players and thus increased shooting volume.
__________________
"Dude. I'm pretty sure he's behind one of those bunkers over there."



My Feedback: http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html
Menace is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  mcarterbrown.com » Paintball » The Armory » Air Gun Designs

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO
© MCB Network LLC