New to mags - questions about Lvl 10 and RT - Page 3

MondoMor · 07-07-2008, 11:55 AM

Thanks for your help again, guys!

I went through another bottle doing experiments. I've been slow to realize it, but the biggest problem with this gun is not with the L10.

When I pull and hold the trigger, most of the time the gun fires and then everything stays silent and still.

But sometimes the gun goes into a slow-motion "lazy full-auto", with the bolt slowly moving forward 1/2" or so and resetting back home, at about 1/2 cycle a second. If I understand mags correctly, this should NOT happen! Air is getting into the firing chamber and cycling the bolt, even with the on-off in the "off" position.

According to page 4 of the blow-up diagrams the only paths for air are past the on-off pin, or past the regulator valve pin. All these o-rings are new (from the RT Classic o-ring kit), and the valve pin o-ring is a nice fit to the on-off pin.

I have two on-off assemblies and pins, and this happens with every combination. The valve pin o-ring from the original gun seems to be Teflon, but it's a horrible fit and leaks like a sieve. The "fat" part of the pins are smooth, so they should seal well.

I haven't measured my on-off pins, but when the trigger is pulled the on-off pin is fully captured by the o-ring, so it should be shutting off the flow.

Everything is clean, and all the o-rings are new from the parts kit. I have only ever fed it HPA, and my tank puts out around 750 psi when full.

Every time I've reassembled it, I've put a few drops of silicone oil in the valve body before screwing in the banjo bolt. Every o-ring gets a light coat of oil before being put in place.

I haven't decided what to do yet. I'm reluctant to blow even more money on this thing by ordering more parts from AGD. I don't want to send the gun off for someone else to fix (as generous an offer as this is) because I won't learn anything. With the amount of time and money I've wasted on this gun, I want to be the one that gets it working.

I'm probably going to look for another source for urethane o-rings PN 779 and PN 844. I've got measurements and I just need to find out the standard (AS568A?) size... and a source for them.

slasherdan · 07-07-2008, 12:07 PM

If you're going to send it in to anyone you should seriously consider sending it in to AGD.

They moved recently but before I lived right down the street from them. They can figure it out for you and tune it to your needs.

Trust me, AGD has great Cust. Service.

If you end up running out of ideas and don't know what to do then give them a call.

Clearush · 07-07-2008, 01:27 PM

Yep you have a leak in your top two on/off orings and you need both replaced.

you can always try tunamart for orings also, I'm unsure what he charges for shipping.

secretweaponevan · 07-07-2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MondoMor

When I pull and hold the trigger, most of the time the gun fires and then everything stays silent and still.

But sometimes the gun goes into a slow-motion "lazy full-auto", with the bolt slowly moving forward 1/2" or so and resetting back home, at about 1/2 cycle a second. If I understand mags correctly, this should NOT happen! Air is getting into the firing chamber and cycling the bolt, even with the on-off in the "off" position.

Correct! Your on/off is not sealing as intended. This is because of a problem with the white teflon on/off o-ring.

New o-rings have a molding seam on the inside that will disappear with a little wear, then offering a better sealing surface. It probably just needs to be broken in. Doing so will also give a carrier o-ring a chance to wear in too.

MondoMor · 07-07-2008, 01:44 PM

That's one of the confusing things about this valve. I only see enough milling for one o-ring. I measured the depth of the on/off cavity, and it looks like one would fit, but a second one (surrounding the first) would not. Yet people always mention two o-rings on top of the on/off...

There's a little tiny part of me that's a horrible masochist and would like to try the ULT on/off, but I can't find whether it will fit in a classic RT, and of course all of the helpful pictures on AO's FAQ threads are broken...

Tuna's webstore isn't encrypted, and there's no way to get shipping prices without completing an order, so I won't order from there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by secretweaponevan

New o-rings have a molding seam on the inside that will disappear with a little wear, then offering a better sealing surface. It probably just needs to be broken in. Doing so will also give a carrier o-ring a chance to wear in too.

AHA! The exploded diagrams show this as a urethane o-ring, not Teflon. I do have a Teflon o-ring but I couldn't get the fat part of the on-off pin through it, so I wasn't sure what it was for. I may need to put it in the gun and pull the trigger to break through the molding seam, then disassemble to clear out any debris.

I don't think my L10 is very far from working. It's in the right-sized carrier (it doesn't leak, but the next larger one does), and it often fires without any problem. Maybe once this on-off thing is fixed...

secretweaponevan · 07-07-2008, 01:58 PM

Whoops, it might be a urethane o-ring in there. I'm so used to working on classic valves.

You are correct that it will only have room for 1 o-ring in a classic RT. Therefor, it cannot accept a ULT unless it is drilled for a second o-ring. A few people do this mod (Tuna and maybe Luke), but if they do it wrong, your valve is screwed.

Here is a shot of it about 2/5ths down: Automags UK, your automag, minimag, automag RT, X Mag and E Mag resource

MondoMor · 07-07-2008, 02:04 PM

Holy crap, there's a picture of the ULT components there! I haven't been able to find one on AGD or AO. Now I can see how it works, even if I can't have one.

Why don't AGD have all of these helpful pictures on their site?

I'll try the weird Teflon ring there anyway. It's not like I have anything to lose.

MondoMor · 07-11-2008, 11:42 AM

Well, it ain't the on-off pin o-ring.

I put in the valve without the bolt, and held in the trigger as I aired it up (putting full tank pressure behind the on-off pin), and there wasn't a hint of a leak with several different o-rings.

So my funny leak when the trigger is held has got to be the regulator valve pin. Somehow. It's the only other path for air to get to the firing chamber.

I rebuilt that valve pin twice with new o-rings, and lubed the crap out of it. The leak seems to be really dependent on the pressure. If I hold the trigger and wait 'til the bolt starts chugging, then increase the pressure, it stops.

Unfortunately, the point where it stops is something like 320fps.

Also unfortunately, the -006 o-rings from McMaster are slightly too big and don't seal on the valve pin.

I put the yellow (medium?) spring back in, and the chugging seems to stop at a lower pressure, and the gun cycles reliably much deeper into the tank. I guess this will be harder on paint, but maybe I can shoot paint with the stupid thing in a game.

I'll have to wait to chronograph the gun until I have more air. And more patience.

Nobody · 07-14-2008, 03:54 PM

the spring has nothing to do with chop. the springs one and only job is to return the bolt back to the sear. the carriers and the bolt are the only parts that have anything to do with chopping paint.

secretweaponevan · 07-14-2008, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobody

the spring has nothing to do with chop. the springs one and only job is to return the bolt back to the sear. the carriers and the bolt are the only parts that have anything to do with chopping paint.

The springs are for different velocities. The greater the force of the spring, the higher a velocity it is for.

MondoMor, how long is your on/off pin? It should be .750" (3/4"). Also, make sure that the trigger has the proper gap between the trigger rod and the back of the trigger when the marker is gassed up and the safety is on. It should be 1/16", about the thickness of a credit card.

07-07-2008, 11:55 AM	#21 (permalink)
MondoMor Oh, crap! RUN! Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Rogers, MN	Thanks for your help again, guys! I went through another bottle doing experiments. I've been slow to realize it, but the biggest problem with this gun is not with the L10. When I pull and hold the trigger, most of the time the gun fires and then everything stays silent and still. But sometimes the gun goes into a slow-motion "lazy full-auto", with the bolt slowly moving forward 1/2" or so and resetting back home, at about 1/2 cycle a second. If I understand mags correctly, this should NOT happen! Air is getting into the firing chamber and cycling the bolt, even with the on-off in the "off" position. According to page 4 of the blow-up diagrams the only paths for air are past the on-off pin, or past the regulator valve pin. All these o-rings are new (from the RT Classic o-ring kit), and the valve pin o-ring is a nice fit to the on-off pin. I have two on-off assemblies and pins, and this happens with every combination. The valve pin o-ring from the original gun seems to be Teflon, but it's a horrible fit and leaks like a sieve. The "fat" part of the pins are smooth, so they should seal well. I haven't measured my on-off pins, but when the trigger is pulled the on-off pin is fully captured by the o-ring, so it should be shutting off the flow. Everything is clean, and all the o-rings are new from the parts kit. I have only ever fed it HPA, and my tank puts out around 750 psi when full. Every time I've reassembled it, I've put a few drops of silicone oil in the valve body before screwing in the banjo bolt. Every o-ring gets a light coat of oil before being put in place. I haven't decided what to do yet. I'm reluctant to blow even more money on this thing by ordering more parts from AGD. I don't want to send the gun off for someone else to fix (as generous an offer as this is) because I won't learn anything. With the amount of time and money I've wasted on this gun, I want to be the one that gets it working. I'm probably going to look for another source for urethane o-rings PN 779 and PN 844. I've got measurements and I just need to find out the standard (AS568A?) size... and a source for them. Last edited by MondoMor; 07-07-2008 at 11:59 AM..

07-07-2008, 01:27 PM	#23 (permalink)
Clearush Meatshield Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: HTown, TX	Yep you have a leak in your top two on/off orings and you need both replaced. you can always try tunamart for orings also, I'm unsure what he charges for shipping. __________________ Carter's Commando Texas division Black Watch Scenario Paintball Team My SCP Feedback Ebay Feedback MCB Feedback

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07-07-2008, 12:07 PM	#22 (permalink)
slasherdan Rec Poster Join Date: Apr 2007	If you're going to send it in to anyone you should seriously consider sending it in to AGD. They moved recently but before I lived right down the street from them. They can figure it out for you and tune it to your needs. Trust me, AGD has great Cust. Service. If you end up running out of ideas and don't know what to do then give them a call.

07-07-2008, 02:04 PM	#27 (permalink)
MondoMor Oh, crap! RUN! Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Rogers, MN	Holy crap, there's a picture of the ULT components there! I haven't been able to find one on AGD or AO. Now I can see how it works, even if I can't have one. Why don't AGD have all of these helpful pictures on their site? I'll try the weird Teflon ring there anyway. It's not like I have anything to lose.

07-11-2008, 11:42 AM	#28 (permalink)
MondoMor Oh, crap! RUN! Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Rogers, MN	Well, it ain't the on-off pin o-ring. I put in the valve without the bolt, and held in the trigger as I aired it up (putting full tank pressure behind the on-off pin), and there wasn't a hint of a leak with several different o-rings. So my funny leak when the trigger is held has got to be the regulator valve pin. Somehow. It's the only other path for air to get to the firing chamber. I rebuilt that valve pin twice with new o-rings, and lubed the crap out of it. The leak seems to be really dependent on the pressure. If I hold the trigger and wait 'til the bolt starts chugging, then increase the pressure, it stops. Unfortunately, the point where it stops is something like 320fps. Also unfortunately, the -006 o-rings from McMaster are slightly too big and don't seal on the valve pin. I put the yellow (medium?) spring back in, and the chugging seems to stop at a lower pressure, and the gun cycles reliably much deeper into the tank. I guess this will be harder on paint, but maybe I can shoot paint with the stupid thing in a game. I'll have to wait to chronograph the gun until I have more air. And more patience.

07-14-2008, 03:54 PM	#29 (permalink)
Nobody Active Member Join Date: May 2007	the spring has nothing to do with chop. the springs one and only job is to return the bolt back to the sear. the carriers and the bolt are the only parts that have anything to do with chopping paint.