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Old 05-17-2007, 02:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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OK, so all this sounds good other than a couple of points.

SO I gather it's good to keep the passages reduced up to the point that they are so small that they restrict gas flow. Obviously the passage needs to expand just before the ball to avoid that gas jet cutting into the ball. But I think I have a way around that by using steps to encourage turbulence and a wire pin to deflect the core of the center jet.

But that plan is definetly as odds with using the Turbo Valve. The TV opens up a LOT within the valve itself. I've got a TV so I guess I'd have to try it but if it actually helps then I've got to wonder about why. Perhaps becase it exposes more metal so that any droplets of liquid are faster to evaporate? If so then it may well help with the USP that uses the horizontal cartridge but it won't help with the vertical changer I would think.

Cutting out the recock flow has already been dealt with by making up a solid pin. Works great.

I may have a go at making up a delrin bolt that uses a 3/16 by 3/8 long slot to match to the gas port and then use a 5/32 or 3/16 hole through the bolt to the ball that then steps out to the normal size to let the gas hit the ball evenly about 1/2 inch or less ahead of the ball. Again, this would "pack" the gas and avoid needless expansion volume as much as possible. I would just need to experiment with sizes that allow a rapid gas flow rather than restrict the gas flow since at that point the gas is rapidly reducing its pressure.

I'll also need to make a new bolt anyhow since with the attempts to preserve the gas pressure within the transfer through the bolt the tendency for the pressure to blowby the transfer Orings will be higher. And the Orings in the usual bolts are set up very loose to prevent dragging in semi operation. But for a pump that isn't a big deal. I'll want them to have a light pressure on the wall so that they DO seal.

Great stuff folks.
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Azzy View Post
.....(It still amazes me that no one has come out with a pistol version of the ICD 'Cats)
I was thinking the same thing while learning about the two Thundercats that are on the way to me. What a sweet small setup that would make.
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Old 05-17-2007, 03:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Well, I think the point of the turbo valve is to make sure that all of the released gases make it out of the ports in time to propel the ball. The wider passages aren't for expansion, but for a higher flowing rate of transfer. The thing is, some companies seem to have taken this too far, and use obscenely large transfer ports and bolt IDs to "improve flow" when they really only waste the gas energy. You probably want the bolt, body and valve ports to be somewhat matched in size. Big enough to allow easy gas flow but tight enough to combat pre-ball expansion.
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Old 05-17-2007, 03:36 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Well, with 12g grams (IMO!) liquid is more of a culprit than excessive hosing space, although best case of course is minimum hose volume AND maximum valve volume.
Gas 'boils' off from liquid co2 until it reaches a certain pressure inside your tank, dropping the temp of the tank. The colder your tank is the lower this pressure will be. The liquid is way denser(at the same pressure) than the gas and so if liquid is getting into your bolt and firing out with the ball, it uses up your total amount of co2 in fewer shots.
The only other thing besides heat that makes co2 gas boil off from liquid co2 is to drop the pressure. By putting the co2 into a valve with larger volume, you cause the most liquid to form into gas and lower the amount of inefficient liquid that goes through the bolt to the ball.

Edit the small hoses minimize the co2 wasted 'filling up' the pre-valve area.

I hope that makes sense and is right
Rob
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Old 05-17-2007, 06:39 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Agent, that makes perfect sense for a pistol with horizontal 12gms where it's highly likely that some or a lot of liquid will get into the valve and even up through to the bolt. But what about something like this?....


where the 12 gm is basically vertical all the time? I'd think that I need to allow for sufficient passage to move the volume but not so large that it has to use up too much expansion and therefore liquid just to charge up a larger holding area. But it's this setup that I found the last couple of balls from the second 10 round tube dropping off badly. I'm looking to improve things enough to squeak this up so that I can get that 20 rounds off with little if any dropoff and then switch cartridges at the same time as the next tube. Or perhaps get a couple of semi decent shots out of the "third" tube so I'm not commited to the time needed to swap both at once.

I know you do a lot of pistol shooting. Is this a reasonable goal for the setup I've got shown in the picture?
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:03 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Dropping 12g pressure seems to work very well with Sniper IIs and the like. I think that the best shot counts I've heard of on those platforms have always been going through some sort of Inline Reg.
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:51 PM   #17 (permalink)
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If you're using a pump (especially brass) all you need to do to ensure you get your full amount of shots out of the 12-ie is to follow these steps.

-Insert 12-gram
-Seal
-Turn upside down
-Cock once and dry fire
-Proceed to load the gun

It's kind of a myth, if anything...but I think that superstition goes a long way when you're trusting a gun to place on well aimed ball down range onto your opponent. =) The difference is that it makes a lower "phut" sound...supposedly using less air. And you need to dry fire once to pierce the 12-ie anyway. =)

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Old 05-17-2007, 11:04 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I've got nothing that needs to dry fire to push the pin through the seal. Just a PMI USP and a couple of holders. One being a Brass Eagle and the other the lovely red-black CCI one in the shot above.

Russ, that's interesting what you're saying about using the regulator. I wonder if the reg is acting as an expansion chamber and a warming method to ensure you get the max volume expansion out of the liquid. Hmmmm......
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:41 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I do know that on KP customs' copper cricket a Palmer Stabby is run. Last i heard he was in the ballpark of 40 shots or something like that.....

May want to talk with Kp customs, he seems to have a good idea imo.


-Butch
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:20 AM   #20 (permalink)
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It's going to get a little tall if I have to run with a mini cocker ASA to 1/8 adapter and then into a WGP Torpedo just to max my gas..... I'll be able to use the bottom of the holder as a monopod at this rate!
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