Autococker leasons please

greenmtnphantom · 07-09-2007, 04:40 PM

Backstory - Traded for a 03? shocktech cocker with a bomb 3way, and swing trigger. because I was interested in them, it turned out to need some new orings so I decided being the genius that I am that I should tare it apart and see how everything works and try timing it as I put it back together.

Most current problem - I brought the cocker out to play yesterday thought I had it working right, I was cycling in the basement fine, or so I thought. so the following is what I have and haven't figured out so far.

1. I did something that messed the velocity up. Balls we going at most ten feet out of the barrel at first, so I adjusted it (took off the cocking rod and turned the velocity screw clockwise) so the velocity screw is as far as it will go and the chrono isn't reading the balls at all, turn it down and they go all of 20ft again so my question is where should I start?

2. the only other clue I have as to what is wrong is that the gun does not always recock, when it does it's only at the vary end of the trigger pull (this is just needing to play with the 3way I think please tell me if I'm wrong)

Any help would be appreciated

p8ntguykenny · 07-09-2007, 04:50 PM

Sounds like a timing problem.

If it is, what's happening is your 3-way is being actuated too early. If you break down the trigger pull of a mech cocker by pull distance, you should be able to pull the trigger to a point where the hammer is released--firing the marker--but the 3-way hasn't actuated yet. As you pull back the trigger more, the 3-way is actuated. Try re-timing everything.

Not recocking all the time could be a few things. If the 3-way actuation and trigger pull are too close together, that could be a cause. The sear lug could be worn so it's not catching all the time.

My best guess is all your problems are timing. If you tried to go for an ultra-short trigger pull on your first try, that's exactly what your problem is. Give it time and play with it more. I wish I could remember where some of the good timing guides are on-line, but I'm at work... no bookmarks.

Slowcode · 07-09-2007, 05:01 PM

Please do not be insulted but one of the most common "new owner" problems I see with velocity is an upside down bolt. Pull it out and make sure the hole is down. IF that is not it try this...

Turn the LPR all the way off so that the marker does not cycle at all. Manually cock back the bolt and chrono it that way. This is a pure velocity check. IF the velocity is low then timing is not the issue and you with have a regulator that needs to be turned up or some seriously weak springs. I would also not adjust the velocity screw in ALL the way. It will make the LPR work so hard that you are guaranteed a slice if the ball does not fall just right.

Try that and then get back to us...

pintbuster · 07-10-2007, 12:28 AM

sounds like timing to me as well. Before you go nuts, turn your inline regulator up a good few cranks just to rule out not enough pressure. If the gun starts working, great, if not its timing. Start by timing it as long of a pull as possible. The gun will now be inefficient and slow, but it will work! Now you have a solid starting point to work with. Tighten up the timing, and then back off the reg. That is how I do it cause I am not yet a cocker timing ace.

greenmtnphantom · 07-10-2007, 06:50 PM

Checked the bolt because thats something a knuckle head like me is apt to do, turned out I did that right (hole down) so thats not the problem.

Looked for an adjustment screw on the reg, didn't see one could it be internal (no brand name or anything on it I'll take it off and look)

I'll keep you guys posted and thanks alot for the help you have given so far

Railgun · 07-11-2007, 01:50 PM

In the fiddling I've done with autocockers I've found that so many of the settings rely on what the other settings were that if it's fairly out of time or has significant issues that it's probably best to just start completley from the beginning. For the best timing process I've seen so far go to the autococker articles at Welcome to Moody Paintball Products . Don't skip or assume anything. I'll bet that something jumps out at you or perhaps it's just needing a detailed setup.

Also check that nothing is coming loose as you go along with all this. In your case one issue sounds like the timing rod may be turning loose and allowing the 3way timing to wander.

Another common trouble is the sear not being timed close enough to the firing point or the LPR not being up quite high enough to ensure the hammer goes back and cocks. All this ends up meaning that the marker doesn't fire on the pull stroke but the bolt and hammer comes forward fast enough to let the hammer lightly burp the valve on the release. That could easily be the cause of your 20 foot shots if you don't happen to watch to see the cocking rod locks back. So when testing for this don't snap the trigger. Pull and hold for a moment to be sure the ball flies out on the pull. Then release the trigger and watch the cocking rod to be sure it actually latches back and doesn't just come forward and burp a ball out.

And since it sounds like you're 3way point is too far back I'd suggest altering the timing rod position to put the 3way point closer to the firing point where it should be. There needs to be a definite spacing between the two but it's a spacing that needs to be tuned to how you pull the trigger for best performance.

greenmtnphantom · 07-16-2007, 09:37 PM

Ok sorry this took so long to post but I have gone through and timed everything again and that is all working fine, but still shooting way way slow.

I couldn't find any external adjustments on the Reg so I took of the hose and fitting. There is a screw in there that moves up or down, you need a flat head screwdriver to do it, I'm going to mess with that and try to get it up to speed. I'll post more when I get a chance to mess around with it.

Railgun · 07-17-2007, 01:07 AM

Ah... you've got one of the old plain looking WGP regs then. Any chance of putting a pressure guage on the front block to tell what the output is? There's usually a blocking screw on the bottom side for this.

Of if you can put the reg on another marker for a while to set it up? Pretty much makes it impossible to sweet spot the reg output to the valve.

What about how the hammer moves? It needs to be able to basically fall back and forth if the spring isn't in there. If it's dragging at all your velocity will drop like a stone.

big jim · 07-17-2007, 02:58 PM

What about the OLD method of changing the springs? Light or no spring up front and stronger spring in back.

greenmtnphantom · 07-17-2007, 05:54 PM

I'll check the hammer tonight I have an old spyder gauge I'll see if that will fit on the bottom side of the block. Give me a day or to and I'll be back with my progress. I want to thank you guys for your help I was completely lost

EDIT: got a few seconds away from the kids, gauge is now on the bottom of the front block and reading about 400 I should probably up that to what 500-600?

Also checked the hammer after taking the spring out and it was sliding pretty freely so that doesn't appear to be the problem

07-09-2007, 04:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
greenmtnphantom Village Idiot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Barre VT	Autococker leasons please Backstory - Traded for a 03? shocktech cocker with a bomb 3way, and swing trigger. because I was interested in them, it turned out to need some new orings so I decided being the genius that I am that I should tare it apart and see how everything works and try timing it as I put it back together. Most current problem - I brought the cocker out to play yesterday thought I had it working right, I was cycling in the basement fine, or so I thought. so the following is what I have and haven't figured out so far. 1. I did something that messed the velocity up. Balls we going at most ten feet out of the barrel at first, so I adjusted it (took off the cocking rod and turned the velocity screw clockwise) so the velocity screw is as far as it will go and the chrono isn't reading the balls at all, turn it down and they go all of 20ft again so my question is where should I start? 2. the only other clue I have as to what is wrong is that the gun does not always recock, when it does it's only at the vary end of the trigger pull (this is just needing to play with the 3way I think please tell me if I'm wrong) Any help would be appreciated

07-11-2007, 01:50 PM	#6 (permalink)
Railgun MCB Member Join Date: Oct 2006	In the fiddling I've done with autocockers I've found that so many of the settings rely on what the other settings were that if it's fairly out of time or has significant issues that it's probably best to just start completley from the beginning. For the best timing process I've seen so far go to the autococker articles at Welcome to Moody Paintball Products . Don't skip or assume anything. I'll bet that something jumps out at you or perhaps it's just needing a detailed setup. Also check that nothing is coming loose as you go along with all this. In your case one issue sounds like the timing rod may be turning loose and allowing the 3way timing to wander. Another common trouble is the sear not being timed close enough to the firing point or the LPR not being up quite high enough to ensure the hammer goes back and cocks. All this ends up meaning that the marker doesn't fire on the pull stroke but the bolt and hammer comes forward fast enough to let the hammer lightly burp the valve on the release. That could easily be the cause of your 20 foot shots if you don't happen to watch to see the cocking rod locks back. So when testing for this don't snap the trigger. Pull and hold for a moment to be sure the ball flies out on the pull. Then release the trigger and watch the cocking rod to be sure it actually latches back and doesn't just come forward and burp a ball out. And since it sounds like you're 3way point is too far back I'd suggest altering the timing rod position to put the 3way point closer to the firing point where it should be. There needs to be a definite spacing between the two but it's a spacing that needs to be tuned to how you pull the trigger for best performance. __________________ Model airplanes are cool too!

07-17-2007, 01:07 AM	#8 (permalink)
Railgun MCB Member Join Date: Oct 2006	Ah... you've got one of the old plain looking WGP regs then. Any chance of putting a pressure guage on the front block to tell what the output is? There's usually a blocking screw on the bottom side for this. Of if you can put the reg on another marker for a while to set it up? Pretty much makes it impossible to sweet spot the reg output to the valve. What about how the hammer moves? It needs to be able to basically fall back and forth if the spring isn't in there. If it's dragging at all your velocity will drop like a stone. __________________ Model airplanes are cool too!

07-17-2007, 05:54 PM	#10 (permalink)
greenmtnphantom Village Idiot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Barre VT	I'll check the hammer tonight I have an old spyder gauge I'll see if that will fit on the bottom side of the block. Give me a day or to and I'll be back with my progress. I want to thank you guys for your help I was completely lost EDIT: got a few seconds away from the kids, gauge is now on the bottom of the front block and reading about 400 I should probably up that to what 500-600? Also checked the hammer after taking the spring out and it was sliding pretty freely so that doesn't appear to be the problem Last edited by greenmtnphantom; 07-17-2007 at 07:55 PM..

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07-09-2007, 04:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
p8ntguykenny MCB Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA	Sounds like a timing problem. If it is, what's happening is your 3-way is being actuated too early. If you break down the trigger pull of a mech cocker by pull distance, you should be able to pull the trigger to a point where the hammer is released--firing the marker--but the 3-way hasn't actuated yet. As you pull back the trigger more, the 3-way is actuated. Try re-timing everything. Not recocking all the time could be a few things. If the 3-way actuation and trigger pull are too close together, that could be a cause. The sear lug could be worn so it's not catching all the time. My best guess is all your problems are timing. If you tried to go for an ultra-short trigger pull on your first try, that's exactly what your problem is. Give it time and play with it more. I wish I could remember where some of the good timing guides are on-line, but I'm at work... no bookmarks.

07-09-2007, 05:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
Slowcode Active Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: MD	Please do not be insulted but one of the most common "new owner" problems I see with velocity is an upside down bolt. Pull it out and make sure the hole is down. IF that is not it try this... Turn the LPR all the way off so that the marker does not cycle at all. Manually cock back the bolt and chrono it that way. This is a pure velocity check. IF the velocity is low then timing is not the issue and you with have a regulator that needs to be turned up or some seriously weak springs. I would also not adjust the velocity screw in ALL the way. It will make the LPR work so hard that you are guaranteed a slice if the ball does not fall just right. Try that and then get back to us...

07-10-2007, 12:28 AM	#4 (permalink)
pintbuster MCB Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Chester County PA	sounds like timing to me as well. Before you go nuts, turn your inline regulator up a good few cranks just to rule out not enough pressure. If the gun starts working, great, if not its timing. Start by timing it as long of a pull as possible. The gun will now be inefficient and slow, but it will work! Now you have a solid starting point to work with. Tighten up the timing, and then back off the reg. That is how I do it cause I am not yet a cocker timing ace.

07-10-2007, 06:50 PM	#5 (permalink)
greenmtnphantom Village Idiot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Barre VT	Checked the bolt because thats something a knuckle head like me is apt to do, turned out I did that right (hole down) so thats not the problem. Looked for an adjustment screw on the reg, didn't see one could it be internal (no brand name or anything on it I'll take it off and look) I'll keep you guys posted and thanks alot for the help you have given so far

07-16-2007, 09:37 PM	#7 (permalink)
greenmtnphantom Village Idiot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Barre VT	Ok sorry this took so long to post but I have gone through and timed everything again and that is all working fine, but still shooting way way slow. I couldn't find any external adjustments on the Reg so I took of the hose and fitting. There is a screw in there that moves up or down, you need a flat head screwdriver to do it, I'm going to mess with that and try to get it up to speed. I'll post more when I get a chance to mess around with it.