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Old 02-11-2012, 12:27 AM   #1 (permalink)
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do nimh batteries go bad on their own?

my e-spyder was misbehaving, skipping shots last week.

just swapped out the old bat for an energizer today and it shoots fine.

the battery isn't swollen, the capacitor isn't swollen.

i must have charged this battery less than 20 times, each time was no overcharged because i only do it for 8 hours when the manual suggested 12ish, and each time they are completely discharged prior because i play with it so sporadically.

so it should still have plenty of cycles left, and isn't swollen, but it's not feeding the gun with juice fast enough to walk the trigger, can it just be aged into uselessness?
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:11 AM   #2 (permalink)
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They very can go bad if they do not cycle as often as they should, i.e. if they have been sitting in storage for months/years. You can find replacement kits with batteries for around $20 which reminds me.....
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:11 AM   #3 (permalink)
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If I remember right NiCad and NiMH should be completely cycled every few charges from empty to completly full. If you stop somewhere in the middle on either discharge or charge they will start to develope a "memory" and not charge or discharge past that point. NiMH is better about not developing the "memory" and can sometimes be brought back by a complete discharge and recharge. RC Car forums would be the best place to look into it.
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:20 AM   #4 (permalink)
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well thanks, at least i know it's natural and not my gun doing some weird juju.


every single charge has been from a complete discharge though, also it doesn't seem to be a memory problem: it worked all day i just couldn't shoot above 10bps without skipping a shot.
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:28 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by K_Obeastly View Post
If I remember right NiCad and NiMH should be completely cycled every few charges from empty to completly full. If you stop somewhere in the middle on either discharge or charge they will start to develope a "memory" and not charge or discharge past that point. NiMH is better about not developing the "memory" and can sometimes be brought back by a complete discharge and recharge. RC Car forums would be the best place to look into it.
Close, NiCd batteries do have a memory effect and need to be cycled regularly to maintain capacity.
NiMh batteries do not have this issue but they do loose capacity while sitting at a rate of about 1% a day due to self discharge ... they are also damaged easily by overcharging ... if using the plug in charger supplied with your spyder you've likely overcharged them at some point. When left to sit for long periods a NiMh will eventually discharge itself past the point of return (although sometimes they can be trickle charged back to life)
A complete discharge and recharge cycle is better for battery life than repeated 'top up' charges. But this is due to the actual cycle life of the battery.

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...
every single charge has been from a complete discharge though, also it doesn't seem to be a memory problem: it worked all day i just couldn't shoot above 10bps without skipping a shot.
It is possible that there is a dead/bad cell within the battery itself limiting total voltage (they are ususally made up of a series of 1/3AAA cells)


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Old 02-11-2012, 01:40 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_Obeastly View Post
If I remember right NiCad and NiMH should be completely cycled every few charges from empty to completly full. If you stop somewhere in the middle on either discharge or charge they will start to develope a "memory" and not charge or discharge past that point. NiMH is better about not developing the "memory" and can sometimes be brought back by a complete discharge and recharge. RC Car forums would be the best place to look into it.

Unlike NiCad, NiMH don't suffer from a memory effect, but you are correct in that they do gain from a periodical full discharge/charge cycle to keep the cell in good health so that the it does not become inactive or gets overcharged. I have hoards of NiMH batteries for work & from experience, the most important part to keeping them in good running condition is a good intelligent charger. Though a decent charger may seem expensive, it'll pay for itself in the long run by not ruining your batteries. Have a look at the Maha/Powerex range of chargers. In my experience the are pretty much the best and can often salvage a seemingly dead battery. They also produce a range of higher voltage (9.6V) 9v batteries specifically for paintball.
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:46 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_Obeastly View Post
If I remember right NiCad and NiMH should be completely cycled every few charges from empty to completly full. If you stop somewhere in the middle on either discharge or charge they will start to develope a "memory" and not charge or discharge past that point. NiMH is better about not developing the "memory" and can sometimes be brought back by a complete discharge and recharge. RC Car forums would be the best place to look into it.
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Originally Posted by Rockfrog View Post
Close, NiCd batteries do have a memory effect and need to be cycled regularly to maintain capacity.
NiMh batteries do not have this issue but they do loose capacity while sitting at a rate of about 1% a day due to self discharge ... they are also damaged easily by overcharging ... if using the plug in charger supplied with your spyder you've likely overcharged them at some point. When left to sit for long periods a NiMh will eventually discharge itself past the point of return (although sometimes they can be trickle charged back to life)
A complete discharge and recharge cycle is better for battery life than repeated 'top up' charges. But this is due to the actual cycle life of the battery.



It is possible that there is a dead/bad cell within the battery itself limiting total voltage (they are ususally made up of a series of 1/3AAA cells)


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This is wrong. NiCd batteries do have a memory effect, but it is very unlikely for any regular users to encounter this. The memory effect was first acknowledged in satellite systems where the battery was partially trickle charged exactly the same amount, every day(due to the hours of sunlight the satellite was exposed to). Quick charging even once will help eliminate the so called memory effect.

What is far more damaging to NiCd(and NiMH) batteries is reverse voltage(I'd say overcharging comes in third). Any NiCd battery pack that is allowed to fully discharge will experience this. As the battery pack goes into deep discharge, some of the cells will fully discharge faster than others. This causes a reverse voltage to be applied to the cell by the other cells that still have some charge. In essence the dead cell being put in a battery charger backwards. Not good and kills the cell/battery.

TLDR; You don't want your rechargable batteries to completely discharge. It messes them up.

Googled some info that backs this up:
http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal20...rFINAL2003.pdf
Dan's Quick Guide to Memory Effect, You Idiots
WHAT IS MEMORY EFFECT

If you want a rechargeable for a gun you rarely use. I would opt for a LSD(low self discharge) battery. Though I'm not sure if they are available in 9v sizes. Common names would be Eneloop, pre-charged, or Ready-to-use/go. These batteries maintain their charges longer and reduce the possibility of reverse charging.

And to add... The reason for overcharging problems, lie in the chargers themselves. There isn't a real good way to accurately determine when a battery is fully charged. Most attempt to determine this by time, temp, current, or deltaV. The problem with these is that it gets more difficult to measure these parameters if the battery has more charge. Thus the call for cycle charging the battery or not 'topping off the battery'. Downside is that to properly cycle charge a battery, you need to do this for individual cells, you cannot do this to a battery pack because of reverse charging. So for any battery pack that isn't 1.2 volts, you have to first disassemble the battery pack and cycle charge each individual cell(not possible in a 9 volt java battery).

Truthfully, it's pretty hard to super damage the battery in a spyder using the spyder charger. The charger needs 12 hours to charge the battery from fully dead. If you 'top it off' by doing a 12hour charge to a half discharged battery, you are only doing a 1.5 overcharge. Less damaging than putting a completely discharged battery on a 15 minute charger for an hour.

If you are using a standard NiCd or NiMH battery, best practice is to give a 6 hour charge with the Java charger, every other month or so.

Last edited by ta2maki; 02-11-2012 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:50 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Ugh....just something else that I have to worry about. Thanks MCB

I have a electro marker that is very sensitive to batteries, and requires a full charge for it to work. So as soon as the battery level gets low enough to cause the shots to skip I have to recharge them. So this does not give me many opportunities to fully discharge them I wish that there was a device to automatically maintain the batteries.

Last edited by georgeyew; 02-11-2012 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by georgeyew View Post
Ugh....just something else that I have to worry about. Thanks MCB

I have a electro marker that is very sensitive to batteries, and requires a full charge for it to work. So as soon as the battery level gets low enough to cause the shots to skip I have to recharge them. So this does not give me many opportunities to fully discharge them I wish that there was a device to automatically maintain the batteries.
You don't want to fully discharge.
Getting the newest 'smart ' charger would probably be your best bet. They would .be the most accurate in getting the battery fully charged and not go over.
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