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Old 11-16-2012, 09:22 PM   #21 (permalink)
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The quickswitch works more or less like any other cocker "3-way" valve. The difference lays in PPS's model's modular design. The quickswitch's cup insert things make it possible to set a nice and short throw, easy to maintain and one of the most all around user friendly and reliable designs out there. Per my last pm, I think using the quickswitch cups to integrate a whatever-way into your auto-nelson design it the best possible idea, simply because apart from all it's positive qualities it would be much simpler to install the quickswitch cups (not the whole three-way, just the cups and the seal kit) than it would be to adapt another whatever-way or even set up a MSV or a couple submarine valves.

Also ask have blue if he knows about any pistons/rams with one input and a return spring with enough tension to move the cocked bolt/hammer assembly into the close position. Other than going the quickswitch cup/seal kit route, I think using a submarine valve with a piston with a strong enough return spring is the ideal route.

Something I noticed, or rather didn't notice, in your CAD pics in your first post to the thread is a lack of anti-kink device (what in cci lingo is referred to as an TPC - tuned port compensator). Even with a powertube with a beefy OD and a hammer and/or bolt with the same, you absolutely need some sort of anti-kink system in place. Especially considering it's going to be a semi-auto pneumatic gun. Of course you would probably make the powertube longer and set it up to also function as an anti-kink system, especially considering you're auto-nelson looks like it will be a bore drop based nelson design. If not doing that though, make sure to add something like a TPC or the Lapco Grey Ghost's velocity adjuster that also functions as an anti-kink mechanism. Oh yea, and on that note, as opposed to using a longer powertube as an anti-kink device, you really should think about installing something like the Phantom's TPC or the Grey Ghost's velocity adjuster/anti-kink mechanism. Why? Because it would be the easiest way of adjusting velocity! Well, assuming you don't like to have to take apart the gun and change springs or use shims to get your velocity set right every time you go out for a game or two. If you're going to run an inline reg, prior to using an LPR to feed the whatever-way, you can use that instead to adjust velocity. But other than using an inline reg, afaik a TPC/velocity adjuster/anti-kind mechanism is your only real options when it comes to being able to externally adjust your gun's velocity.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:54 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toymachine View Post
The quickswitch works more or less like any other cocker "3-way" valve. The difference lays in PPS's model's modular design. The quickswitch's cup insert things make it possible to set a nice and short throw, easy to maintain and one of the most all around user friendly and reliable designs out there. Per my last pm, I think using the quickswitch cups to integrate a whatever-way into your auto-nelson design it the best possible idea, simply because apart from all it's positive qualities it would be much simpler to install the quickswitch cups (not the whole three-way, just the cups and the seal kit) than it would be to adapt another whatever-way or even set up a MSV or a couple submarine valves.

Also ask have blue if he knows about any pistons/rams with one input and a return spring with enough tension to move the cocked bolt/hammer assembly into the close position. Other than going the quickswitch cup/seal kit route, I think using a submarine valve with a piston with a strong enough return spring is the ideal route.

Something I noticed, or rather didn't notice, in your CAD pics in your first post to the thread is a lack of anti-kink device (what in cci lingo is referred to as an TPC - tuned port compensator). Even with a powertube with a beefy OD and a hammer and/or bolt with the same, you absolutely need some sort of anti-kink system in place. Especially considering it's going to be a semi-auto pneumatic gun. Of course you would probably make the powertube longer and set it up to also function as an anti-kink system, especially considering you're auto-nelson looks like it will be a bore drop based nelson design. If not doing that though, make sure to add something like a TPC or the Lapco Grey Ghost's velocity adjuster that also functions as an anti-kink mechanism. Oh yea, and on that note, as opposed to using a longer powertube as an anti-kink device, you really should think about installing something like the Phantom's TPC or the Grey Ghost's velocity adjuster/anti-kink mechanism. Why? Because it would be the easiest way of adjusting velocity! Well, assuming you don't like to have to take apart the gun and change springs or use shims to get your velocity set right every time you go out for a game or two. If you're going to run an inline reg, prior to using an LPR to feed the whatever-way, you can use that instead to adjust velocity. But other than using an inline reg, afaik a TPC/velocity adjuster/anti-kind mechanism is your only real options when it comes to being able to externally adjust your gun's velocity.
So, the cups are stationary right? Maybe it is easier to just use them instead. I'l have to do some research And ask haveblue too about the rams, it would be much easier to just use a single acting cylinder with spring return!

And I am planning to use a TPC, just for a smoother cycle and velocity adjustment. I haven't finished the design yet, TPC is still to come and I need to update powertube, hammer and bolt to new OD/ID
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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The SMAV-3 is a 3-way that can be plumbed normally open or normally closed. An MSV or MSV-2 is a 3-way that can only be plumbed normally closed - but is also not cylindrical and is quite a bit larger than an SMAV-3.

You can use a cocker ram with a 3-way, just hook a constant air supply to the side with that the rod comes out of and cycle the air only on the back side. No need to find a spring return ram. Just uses the different surface areas on each side of the piston to control the movement. You will have a lower force extending the ram than if you were using a 4-way, but the retract force would be the same as normal.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:38 PM   #24 (permalink)
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how about you put it in the grip?
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:11 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by y0da900 View Post
The SMAV-3 is a 3-way that can be plumbed normally open or normally closed. An MSV or MSV-2 is a 3-way that can only be plumbed normally closed - but is also not cylindrical and is quite a bit larger than an SMAV-3.

You can use a cocker ram with a 3-way, just hook a constant air supply to the side with that the rod comes out of and cycle the air only on the back side. No need to find a spring return ram. Just uses the different surface areas on each side of the piston to control the movement. You will have a lower force extending the ram than if you were using a 4-way, but the retract force would be the same as normal.
Oh, that's really smart actually. Just need to find the right ram then, all cocker rams have a 1/8 shaft and most have 3/8 bore right? (I'm not sure, I know some aftermarket rams have bigger bore size).

F=P*A

A piston: 0.11 square inches

A shaft: 0.049 square inches

F(forward stroke)@100 psi: (0.049)*100= 4,9 pounds
F(return stroke)@100 psi: (0.11-0.049)*100= 6.1 pounds


Is this enough to recock a nelson valve? My guess is it would work depending on springing.




Thanks for giving me ideas!
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Originally Posted by ksciupider View Post
how about you put it in the grip?
I have though of that, but I think it would look weird with all the tubing and I already planned to have the LPR in the grip. Thanks for input
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:04 PM   #26 (permalink)
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y0da900's suggestion, especially with his experience with the mech and closed bolt ion, is gold here. Great idea!

I think you meant 4,9 and 6,1 (or for us other folks 4.9 & 6.1), not to be a dick, but you know...

Would it be enough force to cock a nelson? You're absolutely right it has a lot to do with the spring (and friction of course). I'm wouldn't bet it's enough for reliable fully functional operation though. But that is just a guess... (always take more forced than I anticipate to cock a new nelson I find, although this is not true for carter guns I've toyed with)

Of course I still vote cups (and you have the right idea regarding their instal), but y0da's idea works either way if you go the cocker whatever-way route. The cups just seem better as you'd be able to easily integrate them into the design, and of course they work the same as any other cocker whatever-way.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:20 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by broder View Post
Hello.
I'm searching for the smallest 4-way, or the one with the smallest OD. Length is not that important.

I'm trying to design an auto-nelson, the black cylinder in pic below is supposed to be the 4-way. But I some dimensions to finish.

Here some pic's:
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/...onelsonjpg.png
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/...nelsonjpg1.png

Thanks in advance,
Olle
nice to see your idea bearing fruit! where does the ram go?
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:21 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toymachine View Post
y0da900's suggestion, especially with his experience with the mech and closed bolt ion, is gold here. Great idea!

I think you meant 4,9 and 6,1 (or for us other folks 4.9 & 6.1), not to be a dick, but you know...

Would it be enough force to cock a nelson? You're absolutely right it has a lot to do with the spring (and friction of course). I'm wouldn't bet it's enough for reliable fully functional operation though. But that is just a guess... (always take more forced than I anticipate to cock a new nelson I find, although this is not true for carter guns I've toyed with)

Of course I still vote cups (and you have the right idea regarding their instal), but y0da's idea works either way if you go the cocker whatever-way route. The cups just seem better as you'd be able to easily integrate them into the design, and of course they work the same as any other cocker whatever-way.
Haha, it's supposed to be 4,9 and 6,1, but I tried to calculate it with inches and pounds because this is mostly an US forum We use , instead of . as you said, and meters and Pascal. F=P*a is Pressure=Pascal*square meters.

Sorry for the confusion, I hope you can understand anyways

I'm still not sure what to use. If the force from y0da's suggestion is enough, I may go with that because it's so simple. But if it's not, I'll go with either cups or double SMAV-3. I'll have to do some research, but I think that it's better to have to much force than to little

I want to thank everyone who has helped me int this thread, especially toymachine who has helped me via pm's also
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:22 PM   #29 (permalink)
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nice to see your idea bearing fruit! where does the ram go?
Just mounted on the side, not done yet. I will not look so pretty, but I think it will look decent and will be easier.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:47 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I gotcha

While I think you're right about too much force being better than too little, it won't be of much value if you don't have a way to control it (ie, restriction valve? decrease regulated input pressure?). I say that given the problems with auto-nelson kits destroying the nelson valve system.

Lol I'd love to see you end up with two lprs, one for each of the rams input (if you need to keep on ram input constant and one adjustable, you wouldn't really need two lprs, but you get the idea - although you're need pressure X for nelson valve's input, pressure y for one of ram's input to stay constant and pressure z for the other input to remain adjustable to control force of the recock - pressure x=800psi or so, y=50psi for example and z=50-100psi)...

Okay I've confused myself (just ignore this crap)
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