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-   -   Devolumize an Ion? (http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/ask-experts/227676-devolumize-ion.html)

Flint 03-01-2013 09:59 PM

Devolumize an Ion?
 
As it says in the top,
Is it possible to devolumize an Ion (mech)?
And perhaps a better question would be, is there a point to do that? Will that make it more efficient, or the opposite?

Nobody 03-02-2013 12:32 AM

sure, you can get some sort of plugs or rings and stuff them in. i don't know why you would, and to a point why. i do believe(though its a guesstimate, i don't know ions at all), is that the higher the pressure, the more you would need a LPR to balance the bolt.

though this is against the tinkering mantra, but the ion was cheap and it worked. some people have dumped more money into them than they are worth. they are mocked(to a point) and if you screw one up, no one will even really care.

so, what are you trying to do? what is the goal by lessening the volume? are you trying to increase the efficiency?

Flint 03-02-2013 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobody (Post 2641168)
sure, you can get some sort of plugs or rings and stuff them in. i don't know why you would, and to a point why. i do believe(though its a guesstimate, i don't know ions at all), is that the higher the pressure, the more you would need a LPR to balance the bolt.

though this is against the tinkering mantra, but the ion was cheap and it worked. some people have dumped more money into them than they are worth. they are mocked(to a point) and if you screw one up, no one will even really care.

so, what are you trying to do? what is the goal by lessening the volume? are you trying to increase the efficiency?

Well the idea is to increase the efficiency, but i guess the question is whether the 25-15 available psi, before hitting the max of 200, are enough to make a difference with a reduced volume in the can... Anyhow probably a stupid idea, since the most common efficiency increases on ions done the opposite way, by reducing the operating pressure, rather than increasing it...

PistolRogue 03-02-2013 02:59 AM

I experimented with a devolumizer for my G1 (same platform, just bolt out back. Whether it really did anything for efficiency I can't absolutely confirm as I never did any real scientific level testing. An interesting thing to note though, is that the bolt-out-back style bodies (XE, G1/SP1, eNVy/Vibe, etc) are already devolumized compared to the older original Ion cans.

I'm not sure the 200 psi ceiling applies to you, unless it's a hose issue. The way I understood it was 200 psi was the limit for the solenoid, since you're meched you may be able to go higher than that (within reason).

I'd be interested to hear what the resident physicists say about this, to be honest. I don't know enough about spool valve flow dynamics to really make an educated guess. I know the dual tail o-rings mechanically limit dwell to something in the neighborhood of 20-25 ms from discussions on PBN's Ion subforum a few years ago, but pressure vs. flow and their effect on efficiency at that set dwell time if a different topic entirely.

Flint 03-02-2013 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PistolRogue (Post 2641259)
I experimented with a devolumizer for my G1 (same platform, just bolt out back. Whether it really did anything for efficiency I can't absolutely confirm as I never did any real scientific level testing. An interesting thing to note though, is that the bolt-out-back style bodies (XE, G1/SP1, eNVy/Vibe, etc) are already devolumized compared to the older original Ion cans.

I'm not sure the 200 psi ceiling applies to you, unless it's a hose issue. The way I understood it was 200 psi was the limit for the solenoid, since you're meched you may be able to go higher than that (within reason).

I'd be interested to hear what the resident physicists say about this, to be honest. I don't know enough about spool valve flow dynamics to really make an educated guess. I know the dual tail o-rings mechanically limit dwell to something in the neighborhood of 20-25 ms from discussions on PBN's Ion subforum a few years ago, but pressure vs. flow and their effect on efficiency at that set dwell time if a different topic entirely.

Hmm, i actually assumed the 200 psi was a hose issue, because the hose rating appears to be anywhere from 125psi to 255psi... But if the hose replaced with 500psi rated one, that indeed may not be an issue.

But as you say this is first and foremost a question of flow dynamics, of which i too dont know enough, to figure this out.

Deathwish_DW 03-02-2013 05:22 AM

IF you're talking about one of our mech kits, I've had mine aired up to 340 without bursting to do something similar to what you what to do.

Flint 03-02-2013 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathwish_DW (Post 2641289)
IF you're talking about one of our mech kits, I've had mine aired up to 340 without bursting to do something similar to what you what to do.

But was it of any benefit? did the devolumizing increase the effiiciency?

uv_halo 03-02-2013 11:16 PM

The SP Epiphany was essentially an Ion with swappable devolumizer inserts. This design change was implemented to compensate for drop off in strings of shots that came about due to feed relatively low pressure air through narrow passages. The inserts allowed the gun to run at a higher pressure, allowing for a faster dump chamber fill. Efficiency came down to optimizing the dwell relative to your pressure.

All that being said, I can't speak to how this would influence the mechanical design.

Flint 03-03-2013 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathwish_DW (Post 2641289)
IF you're talking about one of our mech kits, I've had mine aired up to 340 without bursting to do something similar to what you what to do.

I did a bit of reading on your and y0da's kit's and, y0da's appears to be saying that the SMAV seals are unreliable on higher than 200psi?

Also, both of you were saying that only full length, with 2 oring tail, bolts work. But someone had a Tech T L7 working despite the immobile tail piece, and in the kit i have the bolt is a single oring tail, also working fine...?
Thats leads me to the question of would a Deadlywind HollowPoint work? Or is even a lighter bolt necessary for a lower volume, higher pressure operation?

PistolRogue 03-03-2013 05:26 PM

Single tail or tail-less bolts will CYCLE, however they're not shutting off the dump chamber or mechanically controlling the dwell, so the dump chamber is staying open (and losing efficiency) until you let go of the trigger every shot. This should also result in wild swings in velocity, so if you're not already running a dual tail o-ring bolt with a mech ion or eNMEy, you should be.

My question is, what would happen if someone were to build a dual tail o-ringed bolt with a smaller gap between the two o-rings, so that the mechanical dwell was even further reduced? I can't find the source anywhere (have been looking for days) but I remember reading a few years back how a dual tail o-ring bolt has something in the neighborhood of 20-25 MS of mechanical dwell. I know I've lowered dwell on an L6 bolted Ion to less than that with no ill results, so what if we narrowed the space between the o-rings so the mechanical dwell were, say, 15-18 MS?


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