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Old 12-01-2017, 02:39 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apamburn View Post
What is a no choke velocity adjuster? I have mine backed out all the way - looking down tube I can see that it is not inside the valve at all, just screwed into the body.
If you look at the picture, see the gold dot where the stock velocity adjust should be? The powertube I used doesn't have one at all. The stock adjuster is a Choke type adjuster, turning it in chokes off the air flow through the powertube, thus lowering velocity. It's not a "no choke" velocity adjuster, it's no "choke velocity adjuster" at all. Since I had two other ways to adjust velocity, and maximum valve flow was part of my goal, there was no situation where I would ever need to turn in the stock adjuster, so not having it there just makes things easier. Especially on an A5 where you often have to turn it in to slide the internals out of the body for maintenance. But yes, functionally identical to just having the stock adjuster out enough that it doesn't blow the flow anymore.

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the hammer was hard to cut. Had to sharpen the drill bit twice. Is the valve as hard? Can I take a file to it?
The hammer is hard steel. The valve is soft aluminum. A file or dremel makes quick work of it.

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Where can I get one of these?
This is what I am using...
Dual Air Source adapter
...but on an A5 I can screw basically right into the valve. Most setups on a M98 have a hose or fitting or two between the volumizer and the valve, which partially defeats the purpose. The ideal is a larger valve chamber, not a second chamber between the reg and valve. But I do find this to be a lower priority than most people seem to think.

Quote:
RE the hammer, I didn't find your statement to be true. I cut mine by 10 ounces grams (admittedly not much - about 7%) and was able to drop 3 spring strengths and 50-75 PSI.

Based on the results of lightening my hammer, the Tippmann hammer has more than enough mass to open the valve with the stock spring, which makes sense given the 'reliability-first' design of Tippmann - engineers likely wanted the hammer to have enough momentum to open the valve even if there was dirt / paint in the body, weakened main spring, etc...

And when you consider that the hammer was over-engineered to have sufficient momentum in an un-polished body, with regular strength valve spring, and 800-900 PSI input pressure, and that in my (and your) system, all of those have been altered, decreasing resistance (and therefore required force / momentum to open the valve), it follows that the hammer could stand to lose a few ounces.

All that being said, clearly you have figured out a system that works VERY well and if I were in your shoes I probably wouldn't toy with it.
My claim on the hammer assumes no other variables. You take the stock heavy hammer, and a lighter hammer, and swap them with out changing anything else at all there WILL be lower velocity with the lighter hammer, which of often solved by more mainspring. The aftermarket ones even come with a heavier spring right in the package. But when you add other variables, polishing, valve spring changes, different pressures, then the effect is less apparent. A lower pressure in the valve can make it easier to open (especially with a softer valve spring), so less hammer momentum is needed to crack it open.

Scientifically momentum is mass times velocity. If you reduce the mass you need to increase the velocity to have the same momentum. My goal was as little hammer velocity as possible, so I had to keep the mass high.
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:56 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apamburn View Post
Thanks for the warning but not necessary. Half of the fun is tinkering with these and I've read plenty of "it's not worth it" and "don't bother" posts at PBN.

There are plenty - plenty - of people that have taken Tippmann markers down to 500 PSI or less and had them cycling just fine.

I rebuilt the reg maybe 6 months ago and took apart the top of the reg last night; o rings looked ok. But you're right - visual inspection isn't always sufficient and I could stand to rebuild it again.

I'm particularly interested in adding a volumizer to this system to see how it affects output. Any you recommend?

So far I see next steps as:

1. rebuild reg
2. add volumizer
3. open valve flutes
4. replace reg
Quote:
Originally Posted by apamburn View Post

There are plenty - plenty - of people that have taken Tippmann markers down to 500 PSI or less and had them cycling just fine.
For a while sure, that doesn't mean they work perfectly every time all the time. All I'm saying is be prepared to have some headaches if that's what you want to run it at. I've never understood why, 500psi is just a number.

That aside, if it makes you happy, go for it. I have a autococker that current has 6 stock, unmodified parts on it (2 of them are screws) and it has issues that some cocker "experts" can't understand. Only works about half the time but when it does work, it's a dream

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Originally Posted by apamburn View Post
I rebuilt the reg maybe 6 months ago and took apart the top of the reg last night; o rings looked ok. But you're right - visual inspection isn't always sufficient and I could stand to rebuild it again.
Replace it, seems like it doesn't have a good enough recharge rate

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Originally Posted by apamburn View Post
particularly interested in adding a volumizer to this system to see how it affects output. Any you recommend?

So far I see next steps as:

1. rebuild reg
2. add volumizer
3. open valve flutes
4. replace reg
A volumizer is just a big empty tube, pick any one you want

Here is what I would do, I know there is a way to plug the reg into the forgrip, do that and then add a volumizer where the air is currently coming in.



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Old 12-01-2017, 02:56 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
If you look at the picture, see the gold dot where the stock velocity adjust should be? The powertube I used doesn't have one at all. The stock adjuster is a Choke type adjuster, turning it in chokes off the air flow through the powertube, thus lowering velocity. It's not a "no choke" velocity adjuster, it's no "choke velocity adjuster" at all. Since I had two other ways to adjust velocity, and maximum valve flow was part of my goal, there was no situation where I would ever need to turn in the stock adjuster, so not having it there just makes things easier. Especially on an A5 where you often have to turn it in to slide the internals out of the body for maintenance. But yes, functionally identical to just having the stock adjuster out enough that it doesn't blow the flow anymore.

I see haha. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Aside from removing the stock adjuster from the equation, have you seen any other advantages from your aftermarket power tube?

The hammer is hard steel. The valve is soft aluminum. A file or dremel makes quick work of it.

Maybe this will be a weekend project for me then. Will this have an affect on shootdown? I don't fully understand the consequences of opening up the valve flutes aside from understanding that it allows you to achieve lower input pressures on the 98.

It would seem to me that having wider flutes would allow more air through in a shorter period of time (throughput). Does that equate to requiring less input pressure to achieve a given velocity?

Also, how wide is too wide? How does smoothness of the flutes affect velocity consistency? After widening with file is it important to go back over with finer file / sandpaper / steel wool? Seems like it might be.

Would it be unwise to do this without first finding / installing a volumizer?


This is what I am using...
Dual Air Source adapter
...but on an A5 I can screw basically right into the valve. Most setups on a M98 have a hose or fitting or two between the volumizer and the valve, which partially defeats the purpose. The ideal is a larger valve chamber, not a second chamber between the reg and valve. But I do find this to be a lower priority than most people seem to think.

Yeah I don't see a good way to attach that to my marker at the valve, unfortunately. To complicate matters I have a 98 custom Platinum Pro which uses JIC fittings at the valve and the ASA. I have a hose shop that can produce converters to 1/8 NPT for me at both ends, something I will do before moving further on any of this.


My claim on the hammer assumes no other variables. You take the stock heavy hammer, and a lighter hammer, and swap them with out changing anything else at all there WILL be lower velocity with the lighter hammer, which of often solved by more mainspring. The aftermarket ones even come with a heavier spring right in the package. But when you add other variables, polishing, valve spring changes, different pressures, then the effect is less apparent. A lower pressure in the valve can make it easier to open (especially with a softer valve spring), so less hammer momentum is needed to crack it open.

Scientifically momentum is mass times velocity. If you reduce the mass you need to increase the velocity to have the same momentum. My goal was as little hammer velocity as possible, so I had to keep the mass high.

Agreed.
I actually can't see the pic...
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Old 12-01-2017, 03:00 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trbo323 View Post
For a while sure, that doesn't mean they work perfectly every time all the time. All I'm saying is be prepared to have some headaches if that's what you want to run it at. I've never understood why, 500psi is just a number.

That aside, if it makes you happy, go for it. I have a autococker that current has 6 stock, unmodified parts on it (2 of them are screws) and it has issues that some cocker "experts" can't understand. Only works about half the time but when it does work, it's a dream

This gives me the warm and fuzzies lol

Replace it, seems like it doesn't have a good enough recharge rate

Yeah, I'm just a cheap bastard. This reg was free. But I should get something better like a palmer's.

A volumizer is just a big empty tube, pick any one you want

Here is what I would do, I know there is a way to plug the reg into the forgrip, do that and then add a volumizer where the air is currently coming in.

No can do without changing my valve out. I have a stupid 98 Platinum Pro which uses JIC fittings at the valve and ASA. A hose shop can make a JIC - 1/8 NPT converter for me so I can put a volumizer at the valve port but the air-thru-grip kit made for the 98 won't do me any good.

If necessary I'll change the valve.


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Old 12-01-2017, 03:34 PM   #15 (permalink)
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If you have the means and really want to tinker, go buy a 1/8 npt tap and just re tap it

I didn't know the valve core was different in those. Would a 98c valve core fit? If I remember right those are already 1/8 npt.

This is one of the reasons I really don't like tippmann, they change little things for no reason other than forcing you to buy 5 other parts that you already own for your other tippmann marker but the fittings are different.

I mean if you have a 98 (not a 98c) you can not put a double trigger on it which forces you to then get a 98c just to do that. That means tippmann intentionally casts 2 separate bodies, puts the same internals in them just to force the players who get the 98 to send more money down the road.

Sorry, I'm a airsmith and I spend most of my time working on tippmanns

/Rant

Back to fixing this one

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Old 12-01-2017, 03:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Apbaum I'll try to get some pictures of my 98 up this evening if I can figure out how to use imigur. Advance warning the body looks ugly with flaking paint but I like it because most people just pass it by. The expansion chamber and volumizer will be easy to spot and might answer your question on extra volume at the valve.
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Old 12-01-2017, 03:41 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apamburn View Post
I actually can't see the pic...
Odd, works fine on both my phone and PC. Anyone else not seeing pictures from me? They're on my own server and domain, and I haven't heard of any ISPs blacklisting my domain. Let me try my other domain name...




Anywho, on to replies...

Quote:
Aside from removing the stock adjuster from the equation, have you seen any other advantages from your aftermarket power tube?
Functionally, nope, not a bit. I wouldn't have bothered if I didn't already have one. Though as a side effect, it did give me an idea for some body modifications. Since it's metal, and can hole pressure quite well on it's own with out needing the gun body to support it, I may just carve away the body around it, exposing the powertube.

Quote:
Maybe this will be a weekend project for me then. Will this have an affect on shootdown?
Actually, might make it worse. Look back on my metaphor...
Tippmann Tinkering...the Saga Continues
...opening the air flow basically gives you a bigger bucket.

Quote:
I don't fully understand the consequences of opening up the valve flutes aside from understanding that it allows you to achieve lower input pressures on the 98.

It would seem to me that having wider flutes would allow more air through in a shorter period of time (throughput). Does that equate to requiring less input pressure to achieve a given velocity?
More throughput is exactly correct. It's like the opposite of closing the stock velocity adjuster. You're opening it MORE than you could with the stock valve.

Quote:
Also, how wide is too wide? How does smoothness of the flutes affect velocity consistency? After widening with file is it important to go back over with finer file / sandpaper / steel wool? Seems like it might be.

Would it be unwise to do this without first finding / installing a volumizer?
You can't really make them too wide. There's no such thing as too much flow. Too deep and you might hurt the structural integrity of the valve, hence I don't suggest just making them deeper.

Mine isn't polished smooth. It's doesn't look like it was chewed by an angry beaver, but I didn't bother fine polishing it. It may have an effect, but negligible. Concentrate on the big picture, worry about the little details later.

It will have a noticeable effect even without a volumizer, but does NOT solve your slow recharging regulator. Fix that first.

Quote:
Yeah I don't see a good way to attach that to my marker at the valve, unfortunately. To complicate matters I have a 98 custom Platinum Pro which uses JIC fittings at the valve and the ASA. I have a hose shop that can produce converters to 1/8 NPT for me at both ends, something I will do before moving further on any of this.
I have no idea why they switched away from good old 1/8npt hoses. They took what they liked to call in their advertisements as the "most customizable marker in the world", and made it almost impossible to do the most basic of customizations.
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Old 12-01-2017, 03:41 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Trbo323 View Post
If you have the means and really want to tinker, go buy a 1/8 npt tap and just re tap it

I didn't know the valve core was different in those. Would a 98c valve core fit? If I remember right those are already 1/8 npt.

This is one of the reasons I really don't like tippmann, they change little things for no reason other than forcing you to buy 5 other parts that you already own for your other tippmann marker but the fittings are different.

I mean if you have a 98 (not a 98c) you can not put a double trigger on it which forces you to then get a 98c just to do that. That means tippmann intentionally casts 2 separate bodies, puts the same internals in them just to force the players who get the 98 to send more money down the road.

Sorry, I'm a airsmith and I spend most of my time working on tippmanns

/Rant

Back to fixing this one

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Well, in Tippmann's defense it does make it easier to work on - if you don't plan on messing with the valve / installing aftermarket stuff.

The JIC fitting screws into a square nut held in place by a milled slot in each side of the body and is kept in place by tension against the valve. Sounds questionable, but works well.

When disassembling to fix a problem in valve, all a tech has to do is take off the left clamshell pieces (split in two) and loosen the JIC fitting and 'pop!' out comes the valve.

Yes, a regular valve would fit.

I can't rethread because the valve itself isn't threaded at all see a pic here

Edited to add: I suppose I could just drill out the dumb JIC hole and thread it for 1/8 NPT. Nothing to rethread if it's not already threaded right?
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Old 12-01-2017, 03:46 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
Odd, works fine on both my phone and PC. Anyone else not seeing pictures from me? They're on my own server and domain, and I haven't heard of any ISPs blacklisting my domain. Let me try my other domain name...

http://airsmithmagazine.com/pictures/magfed/mk5-1.jpg


Anywho, on to replies...


Functionally, nope, not a bit. I wouldn't have bothered if I didn't already have one. Though as a side effect, it did give me an idea for some body modifications. Since it's metal, and can hole pressure quite well on it's own with out needing the gun body to support it, I may just carve away the body around it, exposing the powertube.


Actually, might make it worse. Look back on my metaphor...
Tippmann Tinkering...the Saga Continues
...opening the air flow basically gives you a bigger bucket.



More throughput is exactly correct. It's like the opposite of closing the stock velocity adjuster. You're opening it MORE than you could with the stock valve.



You can't really make them too wide. There's no such thing as too much flow. Too deep and you might hurt the structural integrity of the valve, hence I don't suggest just making them deeper.

Mine isn't polished smooth. It's doesn't look like it was chewed by an angry beaver, but I didn't bother fine polishing it. It may have an effect, but negligible. Concentrate on the big picture, worry about the little details later.

It will have a noticeable effect even without a volumizer, but does NOT solve your slow recharging regulator. Fix that first.



I have no idea why they switched away from good old 1/8npt hoses. They took what they liked to call in their advertisements as the "most customizable marker in the world", and made it almost impossible to do the most basic of customizations.
That pic came up fine. For what it's worth I followed the link to the other image and the page returned an error stating that there was an error in the JPG file.

Maybe my browser (FF) or the corporate firewall at work or something.

Nice looking marker! Light and compact. I dig it.

The very first thing I am going to do, then, is get a different reg. Maybe for Christmas....
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Old 12-01-2017, 04:13 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by apamburn View Post
Well, in Tippmann's defense it does make it easier to work on - if you don't plan on messing with the valve / installing aftermarket stuff.
Sooooooo.... It's easier to work on if you don't actually work on it? Got it. My truck is 100% reliable if I don't turn it on as well

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Originally Posted by apamburn View Post
The JIC fitting screws into a square nut held in place by a milled slot in each side of the body and is kept in place by tension against the valve. Sounds questionable, but works well.
Seems like a mix between the a5 tombstone setup and the way tippmann attaches their ASAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by apamburn View Post
when disassembling to fix a problem in valve, all a tech has to do is take off the left clamshell pieces (split in two) and loosen the JIC fitting and 'pop!' out comes the valve.
All a tech has to do is take the whole thing apart, yes I know, done it a million times, and again, it's a terrible design. Don't confuse that with difficult to take apart. If I give a monkey Allen keys he can eventually take apart a tippmann but for simple maintenance tasks like replacing the bolt tip o ring or the hammer o ring, you shouldn't need to take the whole thing apart. Tippmann uses the clamshell to save themselves money nothing else.

The design was outdated 15 years ago but they still cling to it

The a5 is better in that you can pull the valve out the back, getting it back in can be tricky though since the valve is held in place by a o ring. I have come across a few that are old enough that the o ring groove will not allow you to put it back together by sliding everything back in the back of the marker. Somehow they designed a marker that can be taken apart one way but not put back together using the same method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apamburn View Post
can't rethread because the valve itself isn't threaded at all

Edited to add: I suppose I could just drill out the dumb JIC hole and thread it for 1/8 NPT. Nothing to rethread if it's not already threaded right?

Ya I mean I wasn't expecting the hole to magically be the correct size already. Replacing with a 98c valve will be cheaper but tapping it would be more home brew


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