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Old 12-01-2017, 06:34 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Trbo323 View Post

I mean if you have a 98 (not a 98c) you can not put a double trigger on it which forces you to then get a 98c just to do that. That means tippmann intentionally casts 2 separate bodies, puts the same internals in them just to force the players who get the 98 to send more money down the road.
This is a ridiculous statement. The 98c replaced the 98 so that it would be easier to put a double trigger in. They didn't cast two separate bodies, they updated the design. Now, I can see the issue with certain things like changing the way the airlines fit into the valve and such. Tippmann USA redesigned the 98c several times to make it cheaper to produce, which was not necessarily beneficial to the usability/maintenance. But the change from the 98 to the 98c was a design improvement.

Anyway, this isn't the place for this. Lets get back to answering questions instead of the don't bother type advice.
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Old 12-01-2017, 07:09 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
This is a ridiculous statement. The 98c replaced the 98 so that it would be easier to put a double trigger in. They didn't cast two separate bodies, they updated the design. Now, I can see the issue with certain things like changing the way the airlines fit into the valve and such. Tippmann USA redesigned the 98c several times to make it cheaper to produce, which was not necessarily beneficial to the usability/maintenance. But the change from the 98 to the 98c was a design improvement.
.
There is only one problem with your statement. If the 98c was the replacement for the 98 then it doesn't explain why tippmann sold both of them for a number of years

They did cast 2 separate bodies that's why you can put a double trigger on a 98c and not a 98. There were other parts as well, if I remember right you could not put atc on the 98 and the rt and e frames would not work in the 98

Again this is me trying to remember because currently I do not believe it is the case any more but in the late 2000s instead of the 98 and the 98c it was you could not put a e trigger on the 98c unless you had the ATC or Platinum version. The only way to prevent players from putting a e trigger on one model though is to cast separate bodies. That may even still be the case but I'm not positive.

As for this tippmann, seems like he has a plan. Unless he wants to get into crazy ideas on what else to do with it not sure what else should be done for now

Step 1) Fix/replace regulator and add volumizer
Step 2)...
Step 3)Profit

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Old 12-01-2017, 07:36 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trbo323 View Post
There is only one problem with your statement. If the 98c was the replacement for the 98 then it doesn't explain why tippmann sold both of them for a number of years
I think I got this one. When you make cast parts it's more profitable to make a LOT of the part. All the slow, expensive detail work goes into the molds, the actual production of the parts is pour, cool, dump, repeat (in horribly simplified terms of course). So when they made the original 98 they made made literally tons of bodies.

Now of course we players tinker, and you can put a double trigger on an original 98 by hacksawing off the trigger guard (Lapco even makes a trigger guard specifically for that mod... Model 98 Double Trigger Guard, Anodized Black ), but Tippmann wanted to make it easier for their users to modify, so they designed the 98 custom, which could take double trigger, and RTs, and sear tripper mods, and e-bolts, all without having to break out the dremel.

But, they still had a literal ton of old bodies. Most of the rest of the parts are the same, so it was profitable to keep assembling the old guns until they ran out of old bodies.
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Old 12-01-2017, 08:13 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Sorry I don't buy it, not for years on end. Espeshally considering how many fields used and still use the 98, heck as an example, Spyder discontinued the vs1 around the same time. The place in China that made them had a stock of parts when that happened, they re-badged them and sold under the name sw1 if I remember right. I didn't see them at all after 6 months.

So even if tippmann had double the stock on hand (which really doesn't make much sense, you would be paying to store them somewhere) the best case scenario is they should have disappeared after a year since the 98c was released but remember, fields also used those so really they should have been gone long before that since it wasn't only players that would buy then

This fits in tippmanns business model perfectly, you buy all the bits you want for your 98c, after that tippmann says, hey we have this a5 for you but wouldn't you know, none of the bits you just got for your 98c fit it, let's just forget that they are based around the same platform, once you finish with the a5 you can then do it again with the phenom. At least that is a different platform.

All that aside, if you guys like your tippmanns, that's cool, I'm not saying don't shoot them. I'm a airsmith and so I see a lot of different designs, some good, some bad and others are the ion which is in a league of it's own.

If you come to me and need help with your tippmann I'll help you. I don't have to like your child to help you out and watch them for a evening

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Old 12-02-2017, 12:16 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Well, I plugged in a tank directly. Input pressure on marker was 900 psi.

With every shot the gauge on ASA still dipped about 50 PSI. The difference is that the marker quickly recharged (which I expected at higher input pressure).

Rapid firing didn't change this behavior: pressure dipped to 850 and remained no lower than 850 while firing.

So:

I understand that the reg I'm using may be to blame, but could it be that I'm getting a little ambitious on the low pressure? Maybe I need to bump back up to 600 or 650 until I add volumizer and modify the valve.
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Old 12-02-2017, 02:05 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I did two more tests tonight. I realize that both aren't without their flaws / unexplored edges and corners, but they have brought me to two questions, both of which I may already know the answer to.

First I tried using the strongest mainspring with the reg still set at 550 PSI. The behavior was the same as with the second-from-lightest spring: first shot dipped to 500 PSI or so and recharge rate was slow. In rapid fire the pressure would dip as low as 450 PSI to 475 PSI.

Second I tried increasing the pressure on the regulator from ~550 PSI to ~650 PSI with the second-from-lightest spring still installed. While the first shot still dipped down to about 600 PSI, the recharge rate was significantly higher, and in rapid fire pressure was consistently between 600 PSI and 650 PSI. In fact, I can't say that it was much slower than when I had no reg at all (though I have to assume that it wasn't as fast).

This led me to the following conclusion:

My main problem here was that I was simply starving my system of pressure. (some of you are going "yeah...we know..." haha). Though I can cycle down in the mid 400s, and even reach desired velocity in the mid 500s, the valve system as presently configured needs > 600 PSI to recharge at a reasonable rate.

And this leads me to the following questions:

How do I alter how much pressure is used each time valve is opened (currently appears to be 50 PSI)? I already have altered how much air is required to recock the marker through RVA, main spring, valve spring, and hammer lightening. I believe the answer to that question, aside from adjusting mechanical dwell through the RVA and spring, is “widening the valve flutes”. Is this an unusual pressure dip each time valve is opened? Can someone check on a stock 98 and tell me how much pressure dips each time the trigger is pulled?

How do I alter the recharge rate without increasing pressure? I believe the answer to that question is ‘volumizer.’

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Thoughts?
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Old 12-02-2017, 02:47 AM   #27 (permalink)
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You alter the recharge rate by using a better regulator. I'd bet that reg could probably keep up with your ego but the tippmann uses so much air that it simply can not process it quickly enough at the lower pressures

Here are my thoughts and some issues that you are currently running into or possibly will run into

1) you asked how do you event the amount of pressure you are using each shot. Your problem is not a pressure problem, it's a volume problem but sorry to say, you are essentially at the design limit there. the tippmann design is inherently inefficient. In stock trim, within a very narrow margin the marker uses the same amount (volume)of air REGARDLESS of your velocity. Excess air is just dumped down the barrel after the ball has left. This is a problem for you right now because without a volumizer it means you are basically draining your lines of pressure every time you fire. Even if you do have a volumizer though, I doubt that reg would keep up, you would just gain an extra shot or 2 before depleting the system again

2) if you increase your pressure but do not compensate with a stiffer main spring you can run into what is called the "submarine door effect" where the valve is being pushed closed by the air pressure on one side and as you increase the pressure, your velocity will go DOWN because there is not enough force to open the valve

3) is there any reason you are trying to shoot at 500? If the marker is happy at 600 why not leave it there? I have no idea what my gear is shooting at, I take the guages off if the have one on them. My dm6 leaks if it is too high OR too low. If it's not leaking and I like the way it is shooting, great, done, go play

4) what's your goal with this thing? What are you trying to do with it?

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Last edited by Trbo323; 12-02-2017 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 12-02-2017, 09:00 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by apamburn View Post
Well, I plugged in a tank directly. Input pressure on marker was 900 psi.

With every shot the gauge on ASA still dipped about 50 PSI. .
Sounds like the tank reg isnít keeping up. Have you been using the same tank through these tests? Do you have a different one to try?
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Old 12-02-2017, 01:17 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trbo323 View Post
You alter the recharge rate by using a better regulator. I'd bet that reg could probably keep up with your ego but the tippmann uses so much air that it simply can not process it quickly enough at the lower pressures

Here are my thoughts and some issues that you are currently running into or possibly will run into

1) you asked how do you event the amount of pressure you are using each shot. Your problem is not a pressure problem, it's a volume problem but sorry to say, you are essentially at the design limit there. the tippmann design is inherently inefficient. In stock trim, within a very narrow margin the marker uses the same amount (volume)of air REGARDLESS of your velocity. Excess air is just dumped down the barrel after the ball has left. This is a problem for you right now because without a volumizer it means you are basically draining your lines of pressure every time you fire. Even if you do have a volumizer though, I doubt that reg would keep up, you would just gain an extra shot or 2 before depleting the system again

So though a volumizer might help, the core problem would still exist. But what about the "LP" kits on tippmann valves? Like the setup Fubarius has, which allows him to drop operating pressure below 500 PSI without shootdown?

2) if you increase your pressure but do not compensate with a stiffer main spring you can run into what is called the "submarine door effect" where the valve is being pushed closed by the air pressure on one side and as you increase the pressure, your velocity will go DOWN because there is not enough force to open the valve

Right, I don't have a chronograph but my assumption is that I will need to adjust spring tension since increasing pressure certainly altered how far the valve is being opened. Next time I chrono I'll report back.

3) is there any reason you are trying to shoot at 500? If the marker is happy at 600 why not leave it there? I have no idea what my gear is shooting at, I take the guages off if the have one on them. My dm6 leaks if it is too high OR too low. If it's not leaking and I like the way it is shooting, great, done, go play

4) what's your goal with this thing? What are you trying to do with it?

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Part of the purpose of this exercise *is* to push the limits of the design. Another part is to examine the effect of individual alterations on the system. And part is to tinker. Because I find that fun.

Overall I have no problem with the marker if it works at 600 PSI but not 500 PSI.

But part of my quest is to see how low I can go. I think I've found the answer to that question as currently configured: 450 PSI it will cycle, 550 PSI it will reach velocity, and 600 PSI - 650 PSI it will recharge fast enough to actually use.

I'm excited to see the effect of a different reg, volumizer, and widened flutes on the system. Not sure which order I'll add them.
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Old 12-02-2017, 01:17 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Sounds like the tank reg isnít keeping up. Have you been using the same tank through these tests? Do you have a different one to try?
I do have another tank - a 13/3k, also with a Pure Energy tank reg. It exhibits the same behavior.
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