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Old 02-14-2008, 02:49 PM   #31 (permalink)
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If you mean outdated, clunky design, good riddance. Other than that, the SR is as traditional as any other cocker. Even more traditional than many high end fullbodies these days, even, with the mechanical valvetrain.
You have mistaken my opinion.

You are correct that the SR is better then the traditional cocker in every way. I hated the clunky moving parts, and external hoses. Traditional cockers looked like a pump gun that had pneumatics strapped on...

My point was that the "Autococker" that everyone thinks about when they hear the word "autococker" is no longer made by WGP. Its gone.

To say that the "SR is a traditional autococker" is not completely accurate. WGP specifically attacked "Cocker clone" companies over the basis that it had trademarked the "look" of a Cocker, which included the external pneumatics, and rear moving block. These specifics were created in order to differentiate Cockers, from Palmer guns (which predate cockers).

But yes, the SR cockers are still guns that "cock a hammer using pneumatics". So on that definition alone, then they still are cockers, though that definition excludes any mQ based system.

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Old 02-14-2008, 03:57 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Definition of an Autococker is even easier than that, if you can't turn it into a Sniper just by removing the front block and replace with a pump kit in less than 2 minutes, than it is not a traditional Autococker.
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Old 02-14-2008, 04:16 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Well, to be honest, I am of the opinion that MQ 'cockers (as I will refer to them to avoid confusion) are not true 'cockers. Neither is the Osiris, but I will continue to refer to that as the Osiris 'cocker. I also argue that Snipers shouldn't be allowed in 'cocker competitions, as they aren't really autocockers. But, I do have an open mind, and I won't go crazy if you call an MQ marker an autococker, an Osiris an Osiris autococker, or a Sniper a pump autococker (which isn't really mechanically possible anyway, excluding the SHO). It's just the aforementioned markers don't fit my definition of "autococker."
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:16 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I agree about reciprocating mass, before the ball is fired is an advantage in the closed bolt design in relations to first shot accuracy, the problem is in practice, most lower pressure cockers tend to have heavier hammer springs, or heavier hammers, completely negating the benefit as that weight STILL moves before the shot.

The Ice Epic, and the Shocker 4x4 use this effect better than most cockers IMO. However, my cocker runs at 850psi input right now, and has a really light tension on the hammer, which is also pretty light, so it runs great like that. I have not bought into the low pressure hype, and my cocker seems much more efficient at high pressure (its a '98).

In fact as far as accuracy in relation to kick, nothing beats an Epic at least nothing I have used, but you get a bad paint to barrel match, and all the low kick in the world won't make that epic accurate... However when I want accuracy, I usually reach for the shoebox before the cocker.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:40 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Something that I had hoped would have come up in this discussion but hasnt yet is that a chambered ball is at rest before it is shot. Imperfections in the ball create friction points in the bore and depending on where the friction points are, can cause a spin on the paintball as the gas is applied. Uneven amounts of friction from ball to ball also cause minor velocity fluctuations, leading to further inaccuricy. Untill the perfect seamless paintball is invented all paintball guns will suffer these factors leading to loss of accuricy.

In an open bolt setup, the paintball is moved very quickly into the bore... uneven friction off the detente, off of balls in the stack, off of imperfections in the paintball, cause the paintball to spin before it is chambered. basically at the speed a paintball is chambered in an open bolt marker the paintball is practically spinning as the compressed gas is applied, mutiplying friction on one side of the paintball and reducing friction on the other side. While a consistanly spun paintball has a predictable arc, imperfections in each paintball make each friction point and initial spin different. Think AGD flatline technology... an attempt to spin the paintball backwards as the bolt is chambered to achieve the same affect as the tippman flatline barrel... only arbitrary to different friction points in the gun and off of each paintball's imperfections.

Closed bolt is (can be) more accuriate than open bolt, there are just a lot of factors that add up to it. Factors like moving mass / ergonomics / trigger or wrist movments just before and during the trigger pull... all these factors add up. We have identified a lot of these factors in this thread, but you guys missed this one.
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:21 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Closed bolt isn't any more accurate, sorry to disappoint. However, I fail to see how that means that those closed bolt guns aren't worth anything ? You claimed that you liked the Cockers you've shot, and that they shot well. Then how are they worthless ?

Accuracy in paintball is mostly due to the quality and consistency of the paint, the consistency of the air released per shot, and having a relatively smooth tube to be launched from. If you've found through experience one marker to be more accurate than another, then most likely the less accurate one has a crappy barrel or isn't putting out a consistent amount of air (or at a consistent pressure) per shot.
just want to say phantom you hit this right on the head if you buy cheap cars we all know what happends same with paintball equipment but that doesn't mean you have to buy top line just expect draw backs if you dont
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:53 PM   #37 (permalink)
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In an open bolt setup, the paintball is moved very quickly into the bore... uneven friction off the detente, off of balls in the stack, off of imperfections in the paintball, cause the paintball to spin before it is chambered.
I understand the theory, but I just don'e buy into it.

Tom Kaye did high-speed photography of automags firing paintballs from a clear barrelled automags. Palmer did similar experiements.

It was shown that the detends do not spin the paintball to any measurable amount, and even if it day, and effects would be elliminated by barrel friction.

However, if the theory was true, then what about "Pseudo-closed bolt" guns like vectors/rainmakers? The bolt closes completely before the hammer drops. Or the PGI Firestorm(sp?)

Or what about the reverse? Consider the omen. It is closed, but the bolt opens while its firing, which might create turbulence, or spin? Or the Icon-Z. It is open-bolt, but the bolt stays shut while firing.

If this was really "true" science, then it would be trivial to built a blowback that delayed the bolt before the hammer fired. Basically, make the hammer travel longer, but the bolt spring-loaded, so that it closes the breech a few ms before fires.

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Old 02-16-2008, 05:03 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HP_Lovecraft View Post
If this was really "true" science, then it would be trivial to built a blowback that delayed the bolt before the hammer fired. Basically, make the hammer travel longer, but the bolt spring-loaded, so that it closes the breech a few ms before fires.

nick
Such a thing is effectively an anti-chop device, which I believe is seen on Model 98s these days ...
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