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Old 06-10-2008, 06:59 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Forces within an electronic trigger.

Hey guys i am having an issue, i have a Tacamo type 68 D and i put a spyder e marker e trigger on it. It fits fine and the trigger works fine but my problem is when i cock the gun, and pull the trigger the selenoid inside the trigger does not have enough force to trip the sear to fire the weapon, now is there any way to make the force stronger so the sear will fire the gun? Please let me know.
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Perhaps get a lighter sear, or replace the spring with a lighter one, i'm unfimiliar with the type 68D, but a lighter spring is really the first thing that comes to mind
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Old 06-12-2008, 03:04 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Electronic triggers already have a pretty light spring.

Two things come to mind. First is that if the shape of the sear is not the same it may be hooking onto the hammer with the wrong angle. The face of the sear that catches the hammer needs to be very near tangental to the arc of travel. Also the lip on the hammer needs to be fairly much the same angle or the metal will be touching just on the edge which could produce too much friction.

From a purely solenoid standpoint the power of the magnet is directly related to how many watts of power flows. First off Spyder based triggers work best with the Java or similar 9.6 volt rechargable battery. That slight extra voltage of just 0.6 volts is enough to drive the extra current needed for the Spyder frames to trigger. If you're running it off a regular 9 volt alkaline then this could easily be the problem.

But all "9 volt" rechargable batteries are NOT created equal. Most run with 7 cells which only gives you 8.4 volts at best. This isn't enough. You need to get the 9.6 volt style battery that runs with 8 cells. This gives you the voltage that is needed to punch through the extra current that will produce the stronger magnetic field.

Outside of that you need to give up or rewind the solenoid coil so it has a stronger magnetic field. That means fewer turns of heavier wire. But fewer turns means you need to drive a LOT more current through it since the magnetic field is related to the current and number of winds. But to drive that extra current you'll need a battery that is physically larger so it has the capacity to drive that current. The little 9 volt sized packages are already near their limit to drive current. If you try to suck more out of them than they are rated for they just won't do it.
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
Electronic triggers already have a pretty light spring.

Two things come to mind. First is that if the shape of the sear is not the same it may be hooking onto the hammer with the wrong angle. The face of the sear that catches the hammer needs to be very near tangental to the arc of travel. Also the lip on the hammer needs to be fairly much the same angle or the metal will be touching just on the edge which could produce too much friction.

From a purely solenoid standpoint the power of the magnet is directly related to how many watts of power flows. First off Spyder based triggers work best with the Java or similar 9.6 volt rechargable battery. That slight extra voltage of just 0.6 volts is enough to drive the extra current needed for the Spyder frames to trigger. If you're running it off a regular 9 volt alkaline then this could easily be the problem.

But all "9 volt" rechargable batteries are NOT created equal. Most run with 7 cells which only gives you 8.4 volts at best. This isn't enough. You need to get the 9.6 volt style battery that runs with 8 cells. This gives you the voltage that is needed to punch through the extra current that will produce the stronger magnetic field.

Outside of that you need to give up or rewind the solenoid coil so it has a stronger magnetic field. That means fewer turns of heavier wire. But fewer turns means you need to drive a LOT more current through it since the magnetic field is related to the current and number of winds. But to drive that extra current you'll need a battery that is physically larger so it has the capacity to drive that current. The little 9 volt sized packages are already near their limit to drive current. If you try to suck more out of them than they are rated for they just won't do it.

what you mean by rewind???
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Do you mean big as in fat or big as in long? I have a nice fat one, but it's only 5 inches long or so.
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:56 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I had the same problems trying to adapt a Spyder E-Trigger to work with a different gun.

As said above, it could be any number of difference, regading sear, hammer, and springs that create the variance.

I found that by using a very large 9.6V battery, it worked. That implies that the cap on the ESP frame was not storing enough power. So, using a larger cap should boost the power to the solenoid. Or adding a second cap? (This could be wired in so that the board itself does not need to be changed).

Another mod is to place small spacers behind the solenoid plunger. Sometimes the problem is the sear has to travel too far, and this takes more energy that tha cap/noid can provide. So spacers gives it a little head start. Cut small 1/2" squares from a soda can, and add then one at a time until the gun fires.
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:58 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost848 View Post
what you mean by rewind???
The solenoid has wires wound around a core, you need to re-wind new wire to increase magnetic force.

Another option is to boost power going into the solenoid. Not sure if the stock board can handle extra voltage. But on a t-board, it can accept a 11.1v li-ion battery pack with no problems. That's what I am using on my spyder.
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Rewinding implies altering the wire size to carry a different range of current and since the spool of the solenoid is fixed in size bigger wire means less turns and finer wire means more turns.

Years ago the slot car racers and more recently the RC car racers found that they could get more power from their motors by rewinding the amatures with a heavier guage of wire. The heavier guage means there's less turns but if you can pump the maximum current through the wire the overall result is a big gain in the strength of the magnetic field and thus the power from the motor. But you need to have a battery pack or power supply that can handle the load without a reduction in output voltage. And the typical 9 volt battery is terrible in that regard.

There's another option for you to try. The attraction on the sear is greater if the gap it has to travel is smaller so the metal of the sear is closer to the end of the solenoid core. So shimming the coil such that when the sear is down that it just barely clears the lip on the hammer (and I do mean barely) means that there's less of a gap for the magnetic field to need to span to attract the sear so the pull will be greater. And with magnetism this is a BIG deal. Magnetic attraction goes down by the inverse of the distance cubed. So a small change in the gap makes a HUGE difference in how strong the magnetic field is pulling on the sear.

So before you get all techy with rewinding the solenoid coil try shimming the coil so that when the sear is fully down the hammer doesn't quite click as it goes by. Keep the open "cocked" gap as small as possible. Be incredably fussy with this setup step and you may well find that it works just fine. Also picking up a Java or similar 9.6 volt true output "9 volt" battery will give you that little edge. Spyder frames in particular NEED that Java or equivalent battery to work well. Even the drop to the alkaline's 9 volt when new will barely work and the trigger will fail early in the life of the battery once the edge is off the output voltage.
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Old 06-14-2008, 06:13 PM   #8 (permalink)
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You might want to add a spacer at the top of the piston so it could reach the sear.
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:39 AM   #9 (permalink)
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the quarter trick... place a quarter under the bottom of the solenoid.
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