12 gram efficiency Q - Page 2

aqua_scummm · 11-10-2006, 12:03 AM

http://threehundredfps.com/?page_id=63

Just finished, was a PITA to write, and I could have screwed up, so please PM me if anything is incorrect

Shadowace · 11-10-2006, 07:24 AM

The science stuff is great but I never had the head for math, field experience I can relate to. My PGP when I bought it back in 88' I could get 30 usable shots plus another 10 "oh crap they are still coming" shots before I HAD to change my 12 gram. When I used my Nelson based Bloodsucker with a Rat Attack I could get 20 usable shots with another 5 that were weak but could make the other team duck, shots. That being said if the weather was very cold (below 50F) I would lose about 1/4-1/3 of my efficiency, with lots of snow shooting out my marker. So my thinking at least for these 2 markers was liquid bad, co2 in gas state good, hehe hope that helps.

-Adam

splattttttt · 11-10-2006, 08:07 AM

Aqua Scum, I praise the work you're dooing. It's a great contribution to the sport.
Al Ray, thank you also for the chart. Explain to me if I understand correctly.
The information regarding co2, is all based off of 12g? Correct. I like to believe it's so due mainly based on the knowledge I've obtained to date that 12g's max pressure might not exxed 732.7psi. Correct? And that at 60*=15.6*c = 732.7psi in the powerlet?

Al Ray · 11-10-2006, 12:44 PM

THe charts arent based on 12 grams, the second has the fill thrown into the mix. And yes at 60*F a 12 gram (unopened/new) will have 732.7psi in it and around 970psi at 80*F. that is if there is in fact liquid in the 12 gram, at some point all the liquid will have boiled off and the pressure, while it still will increase some, will not increase as drasticly as if there still was liquid in it, this is where the second chart comes into play more so than the first.

Upon further thought, a 12 gram might not be at those pressures at those temperatures. I need to do some tests before I can fully answere these question, but in order to do those tests I need to build a test chamber and some other stuff. It will take 2-3 months to get it all done in my spare time, but I'll make a few 12 gram specific charts. Air density might also have an effect, but Im not shure I'll be able to measure the effect or not. Well see.

aqua_scummm · 11-10-2006, 02:29 PM

Oh woops, that was put in the wrong thread, wasn't there recently another thread about 12g efficiency? My post wasnt even really related to this post.

My opinion is that Vertical gets more consistency, so if you could mount a vertical 12 gram right onto the valve, much like how a CCI dropout valve has the 12g feed right into it, you would get killer efficiency.

According to Doc Nickel, if you run a Semi off liquid for winter use, you'll get slightly fewer shots per tank. Of course you have to factor in weather, but I think this helps show that using liquid is less efficient.

Another thing to note that as CO2 gas, it just expands. As a liquid, it has to change phases and expand, which leads me to believe it would take *very* slightly longer, but if it does take longer, then some liquid might be left after the ball is shot, doing nothing except wasting air.

Take all this with a grain of salt though: I'm in my third year at a 2 year college

Hoopajoo · 11-10-2006, 05:16 PM

http://www.docsmachine.com/tech/liquid.html

aqua_scummm · 11-10-2006, 07:11 PM

thats the article

B · 11-10-2006, 07:38 PM

Not a bad take off of my tuning articale

11-10-2006, 12:03 AM	#11 (permalink)
aqua_scummm Post Whore Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles	http://threehundredfps.com/?page_id=63 Just finished, was a PITA to write, and I could have screwed up, so please PM me if anything is incorrect __________________ Got an Outlaw game in the LA or San Francisco area? Please PM me!

11-10-2006, 07:24 AM	#12 (permalink)
Shadowace Active Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Attleboro, MA	The science stuff is great but I never had the head for math, field experience I can relate to. My PGP when I bought it back in 88' I could get 30 usable shots plus another 10 "oh crap they are still coming" shots before I HAD to change my 12 gram. When I used my Nelson based Bloodsucker with a Rat Attack I could get 20 usable shots with another 5 that were weak but could make the other team duck, shots. That being said if the weather was very cold (below 50F) I would lose about 1/4-1/3 of my efficiency, with lots of snow shooting out my marker. So my thinking at least for these 2 markers was liquid bad, co2 in gas state good, hehe hope that helps. -Adam __________________ Old, Heavy and Loud...I am a lot like my VM. Dum vivimus vivamus! While we live, let us live!

11-10-2006, 08:07 AM	#13 (permalink)
splattttttt starts off small at first Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Bean Town, U.S.A.	Aqua Scum, I praise the work you're dooing. It's a great contribution to the sport. Al Ray, thank you also for the chart. Explain to me if I understand correctly. The information regarding co2, is all based off of 12g? Correct. I like to believe it's so due mainly based on the knowledge I've obtained to date that 12g's max pressure might not exxed 732.7psi. Correct? And that at 60=15.6c = 732.7psi in the powerlet? __________________ My Feed Back my MCB album and my youtube channel ((( watch this PUMP DOCUMENTARY ))) *"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others which have been tried." Winston Churchill* THE-SHOOTIST Anyone chubbin' like me for this? mailmanmike Since Monday! That's more than 4 hours though, so according to those cialis ads I should see my doctor. tlane77 I think for a non-chemical chubby it's 6 hours before its time to see a doctor. So you should be good for another couple hours. splattttttt I wasn't goin to google "chubbin" because I assumed it had to do with fat. The lard type, not the fun stuff. But what ever feelings Jeff's experiencing, then they must be of the fun like stuff... tlane77 He's got a woody for your woods.

11-10-2006, 12:44 PM	#14 (permalink)
Al Ray GWC Lifetime Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Grand Junction, Colorado	THe charts arent based on 12 grams, the second has the fill thrown into the mix. And yes at 60F a 12 gram (unopened/new) will have 732.7psi in it and around 970psi at 80F. that is if there is in fact liquid in the 12 gram, at some point all the liquid will have boiled off and the pressure, while it still will increase some, will not increase as drasticly as if there still was liquid in it, this is where the second chart comes into play more so than the first. Upon further thought, a 12 gram might not be at those pressures at those temperatures. I need to do some tests before I can fully answere these question, but in order to do those tests I need to build a test chamber and some other stuff. It will take 2-3 months to get it all done in my spare time, but I'll make a few 12 gram specific charts. Air density might also have an effect, but Im not shure I'll be able to measure the effect or not. Well see. Last edited by Al Ray; 11-10-2006 at 02:07 PM.

11-10-2006, 02:29 PM	#15 (permalink)
aqua_scummm Post Whore Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles	Oh woops, that was put in the wrong thread, wasn't there recently another thread about 12g efficiency? My post wasnt even really related to this post. My opinion is that Vertical gets more consistency, so if you could mount a vertical 12 gram right onto the valve, much like how a CCI dropout valve has the 12g feed right into it, you would get killer efficiency. According to Doc Nickel, if you run a Semi off liquid for winter use, you'll get slightly fewer shots per tank. Of course you have to factor in weather, but I think this helps show that using liquid is less efficient. Another thing to note that as CO2 gas, it just expands. As a liquid, it has to change phases and expand, which leads me to believe it would take very slightly longer, but if it does take longer, then some liquid might be left after the ball is shot, doing nothing except wasting air. Take all this with a grain of salt though: I'm in my third year at a 2 year college __________________ Got an Outlaw game in the LA or San Francisco area? Please PM me!

11-10-2006, 05:16 PM	#16 (permalink)
Hoopajoo Newbie Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Spokane, WA	http://www.docsmachine.com/tech/liquid.html

11-10-2006, 07:11 PM	#17 (permalink)
aqua_scummm Post Whore Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles	thats the article __________________ Got an Outlaw game in the LA or San Francisco area? Please PM me!

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