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Old 12-10-2006, 06:03 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
It's funny but I've been wanting to make a post like this too for a while. Now granted so far I've only played with pumps or blowbacks but I find that the Piranhas I've used are just fine and push paint nicely and without any excessive kick.
Next time you are down at the field, find a guy with a fancypants hosebeast or something and ask him to let you run some paint through it. I don't think most guys mind and it will at least show you the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Most blow backs are fine. I have respect for dependability and good durable design. Plus, as long as the pipe is nice and the push consistant the paint will fly ok.
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Old 12-10-2006, 06:44 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Next time you are down at the field, find a guy with a fancypants hosebeast or something and ask him to let you run some paint through it. I don't think most guys mind and it will at least show you the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Most blow backs are fine. I have respect for dependability and good durable design. Plus, as long as the pipe is nice and the push consistant the paint will fly ok.
I may not have to ask. I'm sort of lusting after one of the new Invert Mini's for myself.... The size and light weight really tickles my fancy. Mind you folks will think I'm mad if/when I show up with one that has a gravity hopper attached.

My own collection is highly slanted towards Piranha blowbacks at this point just because I like the size and weight and feel of them and how they shoot. It may well be coating a hotdog with caviar to fine tune them but it's fun and keeps me out of trouble... But I'm pretty sure that if I stick with this sport for a few years that you'll see less cheapies and a few mid to high level guns just because I like the look and feel of finely made stuff.
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Old 12-10-2006, 06:59 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Why are blowbacks low end?

Becouse some thing has to be.
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Old 12-10-2006, 08:12 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Just thinking while I was making dinner.....

While I haven't played with my autocockers yet I've done a bit of backyard testing. Seems like my cockers are a touch smoother than my Piranhas but not by a really significant amount. Also with good barrels on each the accuracy seems to be consistent regardless of style. Now this is just impressions for now. I've got nothing lab grade to back it up.

But I guess that the point is that blowbacks seem to be considered "low grade" mostly because they cost less.
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Old 12-10-2006, 09:04 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Much less? Some of the most effecient guns EVER were all blowbacks. And blowbacks are the fastest firing guns as well.

Blowbacks are considered "low end" because they are cheaper to make. So, "low end" guns are all blowbacks.

You could easily make a "high end" blowback, but the problem is comsumers expect "more" if they are paying $1000.
They think that non-blowbacks are more accurate, and can fire faster.

manafacturers also use dishonest tactics like purposely CAPPING e-blowbacks at slow speeds to encourage owners to upgrade to better guns.

It is funny, though, to think that the hat the blowbacks of 12 years ago are far superior to the blowbacks of today.

I agree most current blowbacks are cheaply made and mass marketed. As much as I like spyders I would not buy a new one for this reason.

If my memory is correct. Arent AKA Vikings blowbacks????

I absolutly hate the "all blowbacks are low-end" phrase.

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So it is our mission to build the First "High end" Blowback
Misson Accomplished.
I am someone that has mostly Spyder clones. 7 total I beleive. 2 of which are $1000+ and 1 approaching $2k (its not finished), They are based off the AKA VLM Spyder bodys. They are all made with the best of parts for when they were built. Around '99-'00.

I must agree with whoever said once you start screwing with the base gun it become less reliable. It took awhile to get them running correctly as modded as mine are once i got them running they have been excellent and very reliable.
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Old 12-10-2006, 09:22 PM   #26 (permalink)
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If my memory is correct. Arent AKA Vikings blowbacks????
I don't think so... I'm almost positive they use standard poppit valve and a 4-way solenoid that moves the ram back and forth.
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Old 12-10-2006, 11:19 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Vikings operate just like an intimidator or any other open bolt electro.

Piranha blowbacks, at least up to the g3 series were high quality usa made guns as well. They didnt shoot great because of their big kick and all the other bad blowback features, but they worked well, ive got one that i wont ever be able to sell because i spent 120 dollars on the dye ironman series barrel for it, but it works.
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:22 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Vikings operate just like an intimidator or any other open bolt electro.
That does bring up a good point.
The intimidator started out as modified spyders. Specifically Spyder Milleniums. Bob Long ordered a huge quantity of Milleniums, but sat on his shelf collecting dust.

ICD was already making a "Bob Long version" of the Bushmaster. SO, Bob Long smartly just shoved the Bushy internals into the Spyder Millenium bodies, and the Intimidator was born.

You end up with the situation where a Timmy is just a spyder, with extra parts. Those parts DO NOT make it fire faster, or more accurately. They DO NOT keep it from breaking down, or improve usability.

All they do is add cost. If cost alone is the only factor that determines "high end"? Then who gives a crap? I guess that makes the Sheridan K-2 "high end"

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Old 12-11-2006, 09:14 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by russc View Post
blowbacks tend to have quite a bit of kick to them, which throws off accuracy.
While most blowbacks do have more recoil than some other semis, to say that this makes them less accurate is not entirely....well...accurate. In a single-shot scenario, the ball typically leaves the barrel well before the hammer hits the back (which causes the recoil). In a rapid-fire situation, then yes, that bit of "kick" will move the gun slightly, so the second and subsequent shots may be off the mark. Most of today's blowbacks have fairly light hammers, though, so the kick of, say: a new Spyder is nowhere near the kick of, say a VM or a 68 Special.

As far as efficiency goes, there very efficient blowbacks, and very inefficient ones. Just as there are efficient & inefficient pumps (think Phantom vs. Sniper), efficient & inefficient closed-bolt self-cockers (think stock 'Cocker vs. AKA Merlin), and efficient & inefficient guns of all other types. The method of operation does not dictate the potential efficiency of a marker.

Finally, to answer the initial question, the fact is that blowbacks are cheap to make, hence they are made cheaply. Some are made better and consequently, they cost more. Someone just getting into the sport may not want to lay out a lot of dough on something that they may tire of in a year, so they get a cheap blowback. If they stick with it, "blowback", "cheap" and "newbie" or "low end" are forever linked in their mind, so many move to a more expensive marker, and when they see something that costs $300 but still says "blowback", they shun it. Most of the "disadvantages" of the blowback design are a product of rumor, myth or ignorance.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:43 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I think a lot of the problems that blowbacks have (kick being a big one) are due to three factors:
- They are made to be mass produced.
- The firing cycle, once the sear has released is completely mechanical.
- They have to run on unregulated CO2 over a pretty big range of temperatures with no adjustment other than the velocity screw.

The springs that are used & the amount of blowback gas that is released to recock have to work in markers that can be quite a bit out of tolerance so they are necessarily a compromise. The user has no way to adjust for any of this as there would on higher end marker by changing board settings or playing with the timing.
I'm sure with a good selection of valve & main springs, an adjustable orifice for the blowback gas, a regulator and a lighter weight hammer & bolt you could make one shoot quite well. You would also end up with a marker that costs quite a bit more to make than a basic blowback & was as tuning intensive as a cocker.

My first marker (and my current back-back-back-up marker) is a Spyder Victor II. It certainly works quite well & other than a spring kit & an aftermarket bolt with an o-ring on the tip to stop blowback up the feedtube everything else I've done to it was free. I'm not at a level where a better marker would make a difference in my game so the only reason I really have any others is out of consumerism & curiosity.
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