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Old 12-11-2006, 12:46 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surestick View Post
I think a lot of the problems that blowbacks have (kick being a big one) are due to three factors:
First, blowbacks HAVE NO KICK OR RECOIL. They have slightly more VIBRATION then other types of paintguns, but it is trivial and does not make the barrel "move".
Honestly, anyone who thinks blowbacks have "kick" might get knocked over if they ever tried to fire a .22 rifle.


Quote:
- They are made to be mass produced.
Some are. As are other types of guns. (ie IONS, WRAITHS, etc). Some blowbacks are not mass produced

Quote:
- The firing cycle, once the sear has released is completely mechanical.
And? That is one of its best attributes. The timing cycle is fixed at around 1/40th of a second. Already faster then nearly all high-end guns.

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- They have to run on unregulated CO2 over a pretty big range of temperatures with no adjustment other than the velocity screw.
So, you are bashing blowbacks because they usually do not come with regulators? Are you serious?
Another huge advantage of blowbacks over OTHER GUNS is that they CAN run unregulated co2, without the dangerous of anything breaking, and still work fairly well.

While I am clearly biased, lets at least be honest. Blowbacks, as a TYPE of paintgun, have many advantage over other types.
One of there advantages is that they are cheaper to make then other types, so entry-level guns happen to always be blowbacks simple because, at that level, the player just wants a gun that works.

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Old 12-11-2006, 12:54 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP_Lovecraft View Post
First, blowbacks HAVE NO KICK OR RECOIL. They have slightly more VIBRATION then other types of paintguns, but it is trivial and does not make the barrel "move".
Honestly, anyone who thinks blowbacks have "kick" might get knocked over if they ever tried to fire a .22 rifle.



nick
Thank you, I was just about to post a very similar statement.

With a decent barrle, my first Spyder TL shot fast, straight, could stay on target for many balls (back to that whole "kick" thing) and was generally a great gun , till I started to "upgrade" it.

(Kick.. I'll let you guys go out to the range and fire some +p+'s through my 357 and teach you what kick is....)
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Old 12-11-2006, 12:56 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Might I also make the point that some people know in their heads that if it costs more, then it must be better, and higher end.

You get what you pay for, but up to a point.
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:39 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP_Lovecraft View Post
First, blowbacks HAVE NO KICK OR RECOIL. They have slightly more VIBRATION then other types of paintguns, but it is trivial and does not make the barrel "move".
Honestly, anyone who thinks blowbacks have "kick" might get knocked over if they ever tried to fire a .22 rifle.
Ha. I'd compare the 'vibration' of my ancient BE Golden Eagle w/ my 10/22. It definately does have a 'kick'.
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:39 PM   #35 (permalink)
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However, I have noticed that guns with heavy TRIGGERS will move around when firing fast.

It has NOTHING to do with "kick" sinec paintguns have none, but instead guns with heavy triggers are more difficult to fire fast. So the gun moves around while the owners struggle with improper techniques.

And yes, entry-level blowbacks tend to have heavy triggers for safety reasons. I don't blame manafacturers for that.

And I know kick. My .454 handgun had so much recoil that it would PULL BULLETS out of the brass and jam the gun!!

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:45 PM   #36 (permalink)
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So, you are bashing blowbacks because they usually do not come with regulators? Are you serious?
Another huge advantage of blowbacks over OTHER GUNS is that they CAN run unregulated co2, without the dangerous of anything breaking, and still work fairly well.
I think you misinterpreted my post, or at least the tone my post was written in.
I wasn't bashing them at all. I love my Spyder & I just got a VM-68. Whenever I play with a big group of people it's never the Spyders or Tippmanns the need fixing at the beginning of the day it's always the more expensive (and therefore complicated) markers. There's a lot to be said for having one moving part (trigger & sear aside).
I wasn't saying that unregulated CO2 was bad either, heck, liquid CO2 from a siphon tank is consistent & will work down to stupid cold temperatures. You will however have a more consistent velicity throught the day with a poppet valved marker on gaseous CO2 if you take precautions to keep liquid out, use a reg & it is sweetspotted.
Most blowbacks sold nowadays are mass produced (at least from a paintball production numbers point of view) and some of them are made to better tolerances than others
For what most of them are used for (for the occasional player or for beginners buying their first marker or rentals) they are perfect. However, they don't have quite the same feel when shooting compared to a say a cocker or a mag.

What I was attempting to say was that comparing a Spyder to a high end marker is comparing apples & oranges. Put the $$ into developing a blowback that has the adjustability you have on a cocker & it will cost in the same range as a high end marker & require the same amount of maintenance. You will be able to get it shooting as nicely as a high end marker though.

You have a point about kick though - I could have worded it better. Feel was what I was going for. The hammer hitting the bumper when it's recocking does produce a feeling similar to recoil & on a relatively light marker like a Spyder it doesn't feel as nice as shooting a marker without this characteristic. Strangely, on the heavier VM-68, it's actually part of the charm which goes to show that it's really all down to personal preference.

Quote:
- They are made to be mass produced.
Some are. As are other types of guns. (ie IONS, WRAITHS, etc). Some blowbacks are not mass produced

Quote:
- The firing cycle, once the sear has released is completely mechanical.
And? That is one of its best attributes. The timing cycle is fixed at around 1/40th of a second. Already faster then nearly all high-end guns.
On an Ion you have the ability to adjust how the gun cycles through the board by pushing buttons. On a blowback you need to buy new new parts. I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with the way it cycles just that you have no control over it. The advantage to this is you can't screw anything up. The disavantage is it makes it harder to adjust stuff you might want to, it's all fixed. For example, the hammer travels quite a bit past the point where it needs to for the sear to engage before it hits the bumper. If you could adjust the amount of blowback gas it gets you could tune it to just barely touch the bumper when it recocks or even stop just before it & make it cycle more smoothly. That would require a re-design of the valve & probably the body of the marker if you wanted the adjustment to be doable w/o taking the valve out. That would add cost & give people the opportunity to screw up their markers which might lead to a reputation of being unrelaible which could affect sales.

Last edited by Surestick; 12-11-2006 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:33 PM   #37 (permalink)
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"Low end" of what? Generally I would think that it means low end of the cost spectrum. If that's the case, it's because they are produced inexpensively in large quantities. Does this mean that they are inferior to higher-end markers? Not necessarily, but people surely must feel that when they spend more, they are getting something for their money. It's the same with cars. A honda civic is on the low end of the cost scale, a Ferrari on the high end. Is the Ferrari a better car? Most people would say yes, but not all. Not if it's the only car in your garage and you've got a family of 4. Not if you live on a long, bumpy dirt road. Not if you have chronic back pain & can't get in or out of it. A "low-end" item is designed & designed to appeal to the broadest part of the population at the lowest possible cost while maintaining the highest standards possible at that cost. A low end marker (blowback)is perfectly suitable for the majority of people who play paintball. Some people want to spend more for a faster or more stylish or more efficient gun, and that's why the high end guns exist. I know that low end seems to imply lower quality, accuracy, etc (esp. among our PBN friends), but that's simply not the case. Low end is just the baseline everything is measured against. Comparing low to high end is just silly. Today's low-end guns are equal or better than the high end guns of just a few years ago. Tomorrow's low end guns will be better than today's high end guns. That's just the way it goes.
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:46 PM   #38 (permalink)
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About this whole kick and vibration deal..I dont care what term is used, my VM 68 had ALOT of "Vibration" and rapid firing it was basically worse than an unexperienced pump player autotriggering a nelson. Not alot of accuracy there.

I have a good trigger on my piranha g2 blowback, and the vibration also leads to a good level of inaccuracy.

Compared with any autococker ive shot, im capable of shooting rapidly much more accurate shots.

Im the first guy who wants to use a blowback. I like guns that I dont have to think about, I like lightweight guns, I like cheap guns that work well, but whenever Im given a choice I will shoot my 70 dollar automag or a 200 dollar autococker because they have less "vibration" and the automags trigger is worse than my piranha.

blowbacks are low end only because they are percieved to be. "high end" guns are high end because they are percieved to be. I would never pay 1500 dollars for a "high end" gun these days. You pay alot of money, but you arent getting a super precision made gun, or a handbuilt gun who some guy put alot of time tuning to make it just right or anything like that. You get a "neat" milling pattern and maybe a cool color.
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:05 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Thanks for all of the replies guys.

But I have another question: Is it true that blowback markers have signifigant drop off in high rates of fire? I have neer noticed this, nor do I have any proof that it is true. I've just heard people say it before.

And this is probably a whole other thread... but what about the fact that it's open bolt? I realize it's not the only open bolt gun type, but does that have anything to do with it's classification?
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:14 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudisill View Post
Thanks for all of the replies guys.

But I have another question: Is it true that blowback markers have signifigant drop off in high rates of fire? I have neer noticed this, nor do I have any proof that it is true. I've just heard people say it before.
Drop off from a high rate of fire is a function of using CO2 as a propellant source, not being a blow-back. On Compressed air there is no drop off. I'm not getting into the open/closed bolt argument. You should be able to find lots of people on both sides of that issue with a little bit of searching. As far as open/closed bolt having anything to do with "classification", I guess that would depend on who's doing the classification and what their criteria are. This whole high-end/low-end thing is kind of silly if you asked me.
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Last edited by Dave Cameron; 12-11-2006 at 04:19 PM.
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