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Old 02-15-2009, 12:57 PM   #1 (permalink)
la la la la revolution
 
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Rainmaker stock board dwell...

... is 52.8mS, measured on an oscilloscope. Also, the delay from trigger pull to solenoid valve activation is about 20mS.

Incredibly long by typical E-marker standards.


I forget which Mad Marty Mod reduces the friction of the linked hammer & follower inside the bottom tube. But the reduced friction ought to lower the required dwell, yes?

Also, since the dwell has no impact on velocity, the goal is to run the minimum dwell that fully cycles the action (bolt moves fully forward). Obviously, if the bolt doesn't move forward fully, the ports won't line up and velocity will suffer.


I'm hoping the board I got from a Proto Rail will adequately run my RM, but it can only do a maximum of 40mS dwell. If it works, there's plenty of room for the battery in the frame.
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Old 02-16-2009, 04:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MondoMor View Post
Also, since the dwell has no impact on velocity, the goal is to run the minimum dwell that fully cycles the action (bolt moves fully forward). Obviously, if the bolt doesn't move forward fully, the ports won't line up and velocity will suffer.
Actually, you generally get a nearly full bolt cycle, but with out the hammer releasing when the dwell is too low. It takes some force to get that sear to autotrigger.

Quote:
I'm hoping the board I got from a Proto Rail will adequately run my RM, but it can only do a maximum of 40mS dwell. If it works, there's plenty of room for the battery in the frame.
Another thing that will allow you to run a lower dwell would be to somehow use a lighter main spring, but stay at full velocity (usually takes some valve work).
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I did a couple of the Mad Marty Mods myself - adding a bolt to the hammer to reduce follower/hammer binding, adding the setscrew to the follower to keep the link from wearing on the body too much, and turning down the valve stem for a little more flow.

I'll give a lighter mainspring a try.

The biggest problem with my RM by far is super-sensitive velocity adjustment. Turning the reg adjuster tiny amounts sends the velocity all over the damn place. Can't wait 'til my new MAC mount & vertical ASA comes.

The RM always gets a when I take it out.
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:34 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MondoMor View Post
... is 52.8mS, measured on an oscilloscope. Also, the delay from trigger pull to solenoid valve activation is about 20mS.

Incredibly long by typical E-marker standards.
But fairly typical to typical E-Cocker standards.

The RM, like E-Cockers, has to do more during its firing sequence then a typical ram-valve, fasor, or spooler. ie close bolt, trip hammer, drop hammer, open valve, close, open bolt, latch hammer. Many friction-inducing steps. Plus, the ram is run intentionally at very low pressure, in order to "pinch" instead of chop.

E-Cockers have the slight advantage in that the hammer can be "raced", meaning, it can start dropping before the hammer fully closes. The autotrigger RM does not, since timing is fixed.

I was able to drop my dwell, and get the RM up to 19bps with just 2 mods:
aftermarket LPR (adjusted up to 125fps. The limit of the noid)
1/8" tubing (very short. About 1/2". Any longer, and it has a negative effect)

I probobly could have broken the 20bps barrier with the MM mods, but I couldnt pull the trigger that fast anyway.
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Mine works fine with my Morlock board and eyes.
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MondoMor View Post
... is 52.8mS, measured on an oscilloscope. Also, the delay from trigger pull to solenoid valve activation is about 20mS.

Incredibly long by typical E-marker standards.


I forget which Mad Marty Mod reduces the friction of the linked hammer & follower inside the bottom tube. But the reduced friction ought to lower the required dwell, yes?

Also, since the dwell has no impact on velocity, the goal is to run the minimum dwell that fully cycles the action (bolt moves fully forward). Obviously, if the bolt doesn't move forward fully, the ports won't line up and velocity will suffer.


I'm hoping the board I got from a Proto Rail will adequately run my RM, but it can only do a maximum of 40mS dwell. If it works, there's plenty of room for the battery in the frame.
I would not worry about what your dwell is set at. 40ms may work because on most boards, this number is the time the valve is turned on. Once you get the friction out of the gun, you should be fine.

The most important mod to do for reducing friction is the pin swap from the carrier to the hammer; you must add another pin to the carrier. The pictures you see on the net are not how I actually did the mods. However you implement this mod, this is how you test it...with the hammer, main spring and carrier compressed together, and still attached to the ram, slide the assembly into the main body. If they slide in smoothly, with no binding, then it should work. Next you need to worry about how long will it last.

Reducing the main spring force is another way of increasing cycle speed. Keep in mind that you need to reduce the valve spring force proportionally. I use a cut-down yellow main and a green valve Cocker spring set.

Another mod you can do is reduce the weight of the carrier. I was able to reduce the weight almost by half.

Another trick to do is to round the front and back corners of the hammer, strip the anno and polish it. This will make slide like smoothly.
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP_Lovecraft View Post
I was able to drop my dwell, and get the RM up to 19bps with just 2 mods:
aftermarket LPR (adjusted up to 125fps. The limit of the noid)
1/8" tubing (very short. About 1/2". Any longer, and it has a negative effect)
That is correct. It is all about gas flow and volume. The more volume you have, the longer it take to fill it. You then need higher flow to fill it faster. On my gun, I went with less volume over flow. the Humphrey valve I used switched faster, but did not have the flow of the Mac. I wanted a cleaner looking gun and gave up speed. For me, that did not matter anyway, because I cannot flip the trigger faster than 10-12 bps anyway.

Everything I did on my gun was to make it faster, which lead to cleaner and quieter. I gained a bunch of speed only to give some up to make it cleaner...
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Old 02-23-2009, 04:17 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Thanks, Marty!

I honestly don't care too much about speed - my big goal is just to get the damned 9V somewhere other than hanging out of the frame.


With a cheesy lathe, I drilled and tapped the hammer for a 1/4" 10-24 stainless shoulder bolt. I cut off the head of the bolt and dremeled a slot in it, then locked it into the hammer with red loc-tite.

The linked carrier-spring-hammer group slides in the bottom bore with reasonable ease. The biggest "drag" is the little spring for the latch (I think I remember you had a mod for that, too!)


I do hope it lasts! I've used a nice moly lube on the moving parts of the bottom tube. It's shot a couple hundred times with the mod and seems to be wearing well so far. The trigger switch flaked out early last year, so I haven't shot it in ages.



I finished gutting the reg, and I'll start reassembly soon.
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Old 02-23-2009, 08:05 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MondoMor View Post
Thanks, Marty!
Sure...It still amazes me to see the Rain Maker is still around.

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Originally Posted by MondoMor View Post
I honestly don't care too much about speed - my big goal is just to get the damned 9V somewhere other than hanging out of the frame.
Before I switched to the Morlock Board, Angel frame and custom front block, I had my gun powered from my hopper. Plus I had the Intella-feed mod on the hopper. I did not like seeing the battery either. I actually modified a stock frame for a guy and installed a Morlock Board and the battery inside the frame.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MondoMor View Post
With a cheesy lathe, I drilled and tapped the hammer for a 1/4" 10-24 stainless shoulder bolt. I cut off the head of the bolt and dremeled a slot in it, then locked it into the hammer with red loc-tite.
Sounds like you are doing the right things (the stainless steel shoulder bolt is the right call). However, swap the pins. Move the guide pin from the carrier to the hammer and your shoulder bolt to the carrier. This setup works much better. Round or smooth off the front of the shoulder bolt so it slides in the guide pin. You must cut the threads down shorter for the setscrew mod to work properly. Plus you want to cut the threads down flush to the face of the hammer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MondoMor View Post
The linked carrier-spring-hammer group slides in the bottom bore with reasonable ease. The biggest "drag" is the little spring for the latch (I think I remember you had a mod for that, too!)
Strip the anno from the hammer and polish it. The carrier is case hardened, but with a sharp lathe tool you should be able to cut the diameter of the carrier down by .010", but no more than .020". Then round off the front latching surface. The hammer latch is rounded were it strikes the carrier. If you angle that to meet the carrier, it will slide over it smoothly. Study how they mate; you will see what I mean.

For that little spring...remove the latch from the hammer to remove the spring. Take a small pair of needlenose pliers and bend one end of the spring so the diameter is about half that of the spring. Don't crush it, just work it around until it is about half diameter. This will stop the spring from dragging as the hammers moves. I tried all sorts of things, but found bending the spring was the simplest.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:53 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Sure...It still amazes me to see the Rain Maker is still around.
They're so odd. And they make neato schlock-shlock sounds that freak people out.

Quote:
Sounds like you are doing the right things (the stainless steel shoulder bolt is the right call). However, swap the pins. Move the guide pin from the carrier to the hammer and your shoulder bolt to the carrier. This setup works much better.
I'm not quite following here - I'm not sure what you mean by "guide pin" - the shoulder bolt fits (snugly) inside a sleeve in the carrier.

It's kind of moot - I no longer have access to the lathe.

Quote:
Strip the anno from the hammer and polish it.
This I can do!

Quote:
For that little spring... I tried all sorts of things, but found bending the spring was the simplest.
I was going to look for a ball bearing, but I like your idea better.

Thank you again for your advice!
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