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Old 10-13-2012, 11:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Accuracy

I have a Phantom with a Frantom 11" Freaked Barrel and I have a new style Trracer with the OEM 14" Barrel that has been Freaked.

Both markers shoot at 270 FPS. Both running on 13 ci HPA.

The Trracer has around 50' more of flat trajectory. Its just not as accurate at the long distance the Phantom is.

I doubt its the 3" of Barrel.

Both guns - use the same Freak - which is sized to the ball size of that moment.

So why is my Trracer so much better than my Phantom for long shots? I can easily take shots all the way across a Hyperpipe field with the Trracer. The Phantom starts dropping long before my Trracer - to the point that I don't even want to shoot my Phantom because I am not nearly as effective with it.

I don't think that 3" of barrel is going to make that much of a difference - but may be it is?
I have read several times of 11" being the best all around.

Thoughts?

Anyone know what the bore size of each barrel is?
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:07 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Something about the barrel (not necessarily the length)
You are comparing apples to oranges here.
You can only speculate until you setup a solid experiment with the only difference being the marker.
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:38 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1yeh View Post
Something about the barrel (not necessarily the length)
You are comparing apples to oranges here.
You can only speculate until you setup a solid experiment with the only difference being the marker.
Agreed.

Again, most likely is it's something barrel related. Try with the SAME barrel (or same manufacturer/model/bore/length/paint w/ diff threads; barrel adapter can skew results). It could have something to do with the valve system. Could have something to do w/ porting and finish.

When you ask about the bore of each barrel, I take it you're not referring to the insert bore but the stepped or forward/tip of the barrels? Unfortunately I have no idea about the latter.

In many ways I find the trracer valve design to be a little more effective than a standard CCI or LAPCO valve design. Trracer valves moded to be used in other nelson based guns like phantoms have demonstrated this. This extra lil bit of efficiency might have something to do with it, but I'm still inclined to think it's more a barrel related thing.
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:44 AM   #4 (permalink)
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How are the guns set up? If the traccer is bba or bottom line you may have a natural tendency to aim high, If the phantom has vert air you may naturally aim down. What type of feed you use could also have a similar effect on your aim.
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:03 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Trying switching the inserts and see what happens.
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:38 AM   #6 (permalink)
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If they are both shooting 270 then they will not shoot different distances. Judging by the naked eye can be misleading, so unless you have actually tested, you can't be sure that what you are saying is actually happening.
That being said, I remember seeing a phantom lob test, so you aren't the only person that seems to see a difference.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:33 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Both guns running the same 13 ci Ninja connected right at the valve.

It is the barrel. I tested at my local field (LVP South) at their chrono station. I chrono both guns as close to 280 as possible. Then take a far shot at a tree with a board nailed to it around 150' away. I use the same Freak Insert in both guns.

The Trracer - total flat trajectory - hits the board.
The Frantom Barrel on the Phantom starts to arc and drop almost 50' before the board and misses.

I can arc the shot, but I'd rather have a straight shot.

So what I am thinking is that the Frantom Barrel has a different bore (between the Freak and Muzzle) than the Trracer.

I found some threads where Simon designed the Trracer with a .688 bore for FSR use.

I think I just figured this out.

The Frantom I WWA - seems to have a bore larger my Trracer. I put a ball in the muzzle of both. It simply rolls thru the Phantom. I put in my Trracer barrel and have to blow it thru. I repeat the test with the Stock Phantom barrel andd have to blow it thru.

The same balls (I used 6) fit thru a .687 freak with blowing gently.

What's funny is I switched to the Frantom from the stock hoping to get better accuracy than my stock barrel. It actually was worse. What a disappointment.

Thanks for the advice.

Last edited by swantrevor; 10-14-2012 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:58 PM   #8 (permalink)
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It also depend HOW you chrono them. If you place the barrel at the same point (say at the end of the freak insert) for both gun over the chrono, that will give you most similar results. If one gun is chrono'd @ the tip of the barrel and the other the middle or base, the results will also be skewed. Again, too many variables.

You should know, that when the phantom's guts are kept STOCK the trracer outperforms it in pretty much every way. You can probably get the phantom to perform better (I know you can), but that requires mod'ing it's valve assembly to take a trracer-like valve or other similar valve related mods. There are a lot of good stickies about this in the CCI and Pump armory subforums. Check them out!

p.s. I love my phantoms, but I also love my trracers. The latter is out of the box one of the best nelson pumps. The only one under $500 I prefer is my '12 ghost, but even then the trracer doesn't do any worse (more/better features on the ghost than trracer imho). Well, plus I just love my ghost

On a similar note, I CANNOT wait to get my hands on the upcoming Hammer 7!!!
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:12 PM   #9 (permalink)
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^^^agreed, phantoms with the correct springs, modification to the p/t and tpc, and a fluted hammer can achieve very consistent/high shot count per 12g results.

speaking of variables, data from testing is only reliable if the tests are repeated numerous times and an average is taken.

also of note, when A/T'ing rapidly, the next shot, or two, will be slightly lower in speed (10 to 20 fps or so).

CJ, you are way too Zen, man. There are many times when I've had those very thoughts, and then I stop and wonder if I am looking too closely at the trees and can't see the forest. Its good to have someone echo and confirm those ideas.
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Last edited by Legolas; 10-14-2012 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:26 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Yea, it's all about the Law of Large Numbers, just like in the insurance biz

But absolutely, CJ is spot on. Just like drug use - everyone reacts differently to every drug

The part is that one of the reasons I love collecting paintball guns is that every gun is different!
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