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Old 02-09-2013, 08:21 PM   #11 (permalink)
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However the paint in my area sizes at .670 -.673 and im pretty sure there are no barrels available in those sizes. Also all the fields i play at have a velocity cap of 250 and i still manage to get 30+ useable shots of a 12ie with no huge modifications (such as a PPS)
My buddy can get 60 useable dots at that velocity. I would have to ask him what his setup is.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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At the same time, Slim, you're talking doubling or tripling the price of the Phantom in aftermarket parts, easy, to save on 50 cent 12 grams and get a bit more accuracy.

Accuracy wise, the stock barrel's pretty darn good, and with detent rings it gets pretty good quality paint matches for $6.

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Old 02-10-2013, 11:50 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Also i have a question for you Slim, whats your opinion on Flasc and lapco barrels? how do you feel about them? and which do you think is better?
The Flasc barrels are new, so I haven't had a chance to fully test them out. Off the deck I was seeing some decent range and accuracy with a pretty close bore match (+/- .001). The Lapco barrels perform really well and are high quality, but the smallest they come in is .684. The smallest size offered by Flasc is .678. Also with Flasc, you can customize the barrel length and tips. Their quality seems pretty good, but the until I see it perform in action, none of that matters.

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My buddy can get 60 useable dots at that velocity. I would have to ask him what his setup is.
Yeah, I'd like to find out about any set up that can get 60 useable shots. Actually, I'd like to see any set ups that can over 40 usable shots consistently, or factory Phantoms that get 30+ usable shots. I'm not saying they're not out there, it's just that I haven't seen them.

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At the same time, Slim, you're talking doubling or tripling the price of the Phantom in aftermarket parts, easy, to save on 50 cent 12 grams and get a bit more accuracy.
Yes, to perform the upgrades that I mentioned (including the Micro CA II), it would cost at least double the SRP of a VSC Phantom. But I'm not trying to maximize efficiency because I want to save a few bucks on 12-grams. I'm maximizing efficiency so I can put out as much paint as possible before I need to stop and swap CO2s. Listen, I'm old, slow and out of shape. I need any tactical edge I can get. Even if I was a good player, I believe every second counts, so increasing my ability to fire at a critical moment, or hit my opponent with one shot justifies the cost.

In any event, the OP was looking for input on a "Dream Phantom". Some folks suggested that a factory model was good enough. All I'm saying is that there is plenty of room for improvement over the performance you get from a factory Phantom. And after you pay for all those mods you'll want to start saving so you can add a duckslide, RTR frame, custom wraparound wood grips and night vision optics. Obviously, all the parts would need to be custom anodized with a one-of-a-kind laser etching on top by O.D.D.

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Old 02-11-2013, 08:50 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Flasc barrels are really cheap so i decided to pick up a set. Small bore sizes, customizability, and a Canadian company, whats not to like.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:17 PM   #15 (permalink)
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In any event, the OP was looking for input on a "Dream Phantom". Some folks suggested that a factory model was good enough. All I'm saying is that there is plenty of room for improvement over the performance you get from a factory Phantom. And after you pay for all those mods you'll want to start saving so you can add a duckslide, RTR frame, custom wraparound wood grips and night vision optics. Obviously, all the parts would need to be custom anodized with a one-of-a-kind laser etching on top by O.D.D.

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Old 02-11-2013, 01:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Slim i really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with everyone.

A quick question i have is about springing. If your looking to run a phantom unregulated what spring set-up would you suggest? In terms of efficiency of course. Is there a certain set of rules to springing? (like exist with snipers)

As you upgrade internals (lets say i got all of the SSC stuff) would my springing change?
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:56 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Slim i really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with everyone.

As you upgrade internals (lets say i got all of the SSC stuff) would my springing change?
Yes. The lighter hammer would make you need a different main spring.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:39 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Yes. The lighter hammer would make you need a different main spring.
I would assume since your hammer is lighter you would need a stiffer main spring? Would this effect the pump stroke?
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I believe so ya. I run stock internals so I never worry about this really.

As for the pump stroke, I've only felt one or two Phantoms with an SSC hammer and could barely tell a difference.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:51 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Paul@Cousins View Post
Slim i really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with everyone.

A quick question i have is about springing. If your looking to run a phantom unregulated what spring set-up would you suggest? In terms of efficiency of course. Is there a certain set of rules to springing? (like exist with snipers)

As you upgrade internals (lets say i got all of the SSC stuff) would my springing change?
As I mentioned, any performance gains seen after doing one upgrade to get better efficiency (like changing the main spring) will be marginal at best. You may only go from 18 usable shots to 19 or 20 usable shots by just changing a spring. Depending on the spring, you may see a slight decrease in efficiency.

Other than his lightened hammer, I'm not sure what else Stanchy offers for internals. I would assume that you would use a red spring (the heaviest) with a lightened hammer, but would have to do some trial and error with the valve spring.

My thoughts on springs and the inner workings of a true "Dream Phantom"...

As we all know, in a factory Phantom you increase your velocity through the velocity adjuster. This creates extra tension on the main spring, which makes the hammer slam down harder on the valve tube, which increases the duration of how long the cup seal separates from the valve seat. Obviously, the longer the duration, the more gas escapes. We increase the velocity (i.e. tension on the main spring) until we hit our desired FPS. The duration of how long the cup seal separates from the valve seat determines how much gas is released, and is an integral aspect of efficiency.

A heavy main spring might increase your velocity, but decrease your efficiency. If your valve spring is too weak (light) you'll hear a leak coming out of your barrel. Remember, that when your gun is uncocked the hammer is always putting a slight amount of pressure on the valve tube. The valve spring needs to be heavy enough to offset this pressure, and keep the valve sealed. Playing with different springs can take up quite a bit of time doing trial and error.

To achieve maximum efficiency for your Dream Phantom, the key is to have the duration that the valve remains open to be as SHORT as possible, while allowing enough gas through to consistently give you your maximum FPS (efficiency means little without shot-to-shot consistency, but I'll talk more about consistency later). So, what's the best way to do this? Ahhh, that's the real trick, isn't it? And it's also where some debate begins...

Back in the day we used to invest in different size valve tubes that were not only bored out down the length of the tube, but also ported at the base to maximize the amount of gas that was let through. Suffice it to say that this porting weakened the structural integrity of the valve tube which resulted in many of them snapping off at the cup seal. Over the past 25 years we've seen all kinds of similar gimmicks intended to maximize efficiency and performance in Nelson-based valve systems. IN THEORY many of these things should result in increased efficiency. IN REALITY it's difficult to judge, thus the debate.

The problem here has nothing to do with how your Dream Phantom is set up or what springs you are using. The problem is all of the fluctuating variables of temperature, humidity, altitude, quality of paint (weight, shape, size) quality of 12 grams and many other factors. All of these variables lead to situations where what works great for me, won't work at all for you (the old "I get 60 shots per 12 gram!" vs. "I get 18 shots per 12 gram!" deal).

The best you can do is create a Dream Phantom with all the performance mods you can afford, spend lots of trial and error time at the chrono and try to use the best quality paint and CO2s available. With luck your new Dream Phantom will not only look cool, but provide maximum efficiency and performance as well.

Long winded, but I hope this helps.
Slim
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Last edited by Slim; 02-11-2013 at 10:55 PM.
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