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Old 03-07-2013, 06:04 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by splattttttt View Post
Like everything in life, answers are always necessary.

Pauly, do you know what the main purpose of a regulator and why its vital equipment when attached to any compressed gas/ air or even liquid co2?

Answer; of course we'll leave out the obvious and get right to the point. And though the answer is also obvious and simple, it rarely gets mentioned. Ready? Sit down though, because you'll probably **** your pants as soon as you hear it. Ready? Okay, here it comes... Are you familiar with the word libra? No! Not the one relating to the constellation in the sky. Or the astrological as well! But the one that relates to an ancient Roman unit of weight. Yea... Scale
And what does a scale do?
Right!
It will always, when adjusted properly, always give or distribute an exact proportion of content from materials being divided or distributed equally. So everybody gets a fair shot. Pun purposely intended as per related content and definition
Class dismissed.
I know, I know... I sound like such a pompous ***. Well hey, I was giving a lesson. Comes with the territory LOL.
lol i run a paintball store and this isnt my first rodeo . In terms of how regulators will interact with 12 grams is where my knowledge lacks (I can tell you everything there is to know about equipment on my walls lol). Im ultimately looking for why regged vs. Unregged is better especially when your regged pressure is almost equal to the standard output pressure of a 12gram.

Reggin co2 will get you a more consistent velocity which in theory should translate into more efficiency.

Ultimately now that im starting to actually test things the right way and not Half A** it im beginning to understand how things effect each other
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:42 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Accuracy Pauly. Accuracy. That, though your paint may vary results. Over and out!
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THE-SHOOTIST Anyone chubbin' like me for this?
mailmanmike Since Monday! That's more than 4 hours though, so according to those cialis ads I should see my doctor.
tlane77 I think for a non-chemical chubby it's 6 hours before its time to see a doctor. So you should be good for another couple hours.
splattttttt I wasn't goin to google "chubbin" because I assumed it had to do with fat. The lard type, not the fun stuff. But what ever feelings Jeff's experiencing, then they must be of the fun like stuff...
tlane77 He's got a woody for your woods.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:41 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
Im ultimately looking for why regged vs. Unregged is better especially when your regged pressure is almost equal to the standard output pressure of a 12gram.
Let's not forget that the pressure of CO2 is determined by temperature. If by "standard output pressure" you mean what the pressure is in 70 heat (850 psi), then the regulated pressure should not be equal to the pressure inside the 12 gram. Some folks here on MCB have claimed that 650 psi is the regulated "sweet spot" pressure to set a reg at with 12-grams. Again, this all depends on the current temperature, and how the gun is set up. One of my Phantoms has a regulated pressure of just under 700 psi. At least that's what it was the last time I checked. I'm sure that number will change in my next game due to the aforementioned variables.

So yes, regulated (or stabilized) pressure is beneficial because it will theoretically give you more consistency in your shot-to-shot FPS. I say "theoretically" because of the temperature variables. If you rapid fire your gun, it will chill down the CO2 (or allow liquid in) which can drastically fluctuate pressure (i.e. negate the benefits of stabilized pressure).

Which brings me to my final thought - It's probably a good idea to keep everything in perspective, and not get too carried away with maximizing shot counts and what mods will give you the best accuracy.

Mike Casady said it best (I'm paraphrasing here):
"Over the years I've seen players go to great extremes trying to maximize this or perfect on that. If I wanted to, I could produce a gun that would be able to shoot every bit of CO2 possible. The problem is, it would take me far too long to develop, and there are far too many variables to effectively compensate for. The bottom line is we're a bunch of grown up kids, running around the woods, who are shooting imperfectly-shaped gelatin-filled pellets at each other. Even if you could maximize efficiency, you might still end up shooting crappy field paint that you couldn't hit the side of a barn with. Perhaps we should spend more time having fun with our toys rather than spend countless hours of our lives trying to maximize their efficiency."

Personally, I think Mike has hit the nail squarely on the head here.

But, because I'm a geek, I'm still gonna try to average 40 usable shots out of my 12-grams if it's the last thing I do.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:46 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splattttttt View Post
Accuracy Pauly. Accuracy. That, though your paint may vary results. Over and out!
This is very true in that a ball consistently hitting 270 will go in a similiar spot each time

Im hoping to get my hands on some GOOD paint (not holding my breath) to see what kind of consistent velocity i can get unregulated.

Slim Mike is 100% right in that its all in good fun BUT half the fun is coming on here and bugging you guys for some old school advice that simply escapes me. Ive loved this sport for the past 13 yrs but 12 of which were spent on the dark side playing nationally with those darn battery operated guns.

Although ive always been a pumper at heart ive never tried to embrace paintball in what i consider to be its purest fashion which is stock class play. I am honored to be able to come here and shoot the sh*t with you guys and possibly learn a thing or 2
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:19 AM   #25 (permalink)
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You see Pauly?, when you decide to forgo with the latest tech mentality and decide on a more honest and retrospective approach to playin paintball, you'll finally come to realize that mentality is now the necessity.
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THE-SHOOTIST Anyone chubbin' like me for this?
mailmanmike Since Monday! That's more than 4 hours though, so according to those cialis ads I should see my doctor.
tlane77 I think for a non-chemical chubby it's 6 hours before its time to see a doctor. So you should be good for another couple hours.
splattttttt I wasn't goin to google "chubbin" because I assumed it had to do with fat. The lard type, not the fun stuff. But what ever feelings Jeff's experiencing, then they must be of the fun like stuff...
tlane77 He's got a woody for your woods.
splattttttt land
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:01 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Slim View Post
Let's not forget that the pressure of CO2 is determined by temperature. If by "standard output pressure" you mean what the pressure is in 70 heat (850 psi), then the regulated pressure should not be equal to the pressure inside the 12 gram. Some folks here on MCB have claimed that 650 psi is the regulated "sweet spot" pressure to set a reg at with 12-grams. Again, this all depends on the current temperature, and how the gun is set up. One of my Phantoms has a regulated pressure of just under 700 psi. At least that's what it was the last time I checked. I'm sure that number will change in my next game due to the aforementioned variables.

So yes, regulated (or stabilized) pressure is beneficial because it will theoretically give you more consistency in your shot-to-shot FPS. I say "theoretically" because of the temperature variables. If you rapid fire your gun, it will chill down the CO2 (or allow liquid in) which can drastically fluctuate pressure (i.e. negate the benefits of stabilized pressure).

Which brings me to my final thought - It's probably a good idea to keep everything in perspective, and not get too carried away with maximizing shot counts and what mods will give you the best accuracy.

Mike Casady said it best (I'm paraphrasing here):
"Over the years I've seen players go to great extremes trying to maximize this or perfect on that. If I wanted to, I could produce a gun that would be able to shoot every bit of CO2 possible. The problem is, it would take me far too long to develop, and there are far too many variables to effectively compensate for. The bottom line is we're a bunch of grown up kids, running around the woods, who are shooting imperfectly-shaped gelatin-filled pellets at each other. Even if you could maximize efficiency, you might still end up shooting crappy field paint that you couldn't hit the side of a barn with. Perhaps we should spend more time having fun with our toys rather than spend countless hours of our lives trying to maximize their efficiency."

Personally, I think Mike has hit the nail squarely on the head here.

But, because I'm a geek, I'm still gonna try to average 40 usable shots out of my 12-grams if it's the last thing I do.
im a noob when it comes to the mechanics of pb, but this fluctuation u speak of, if you have a regulator, the only fluctuation you would experience due to cold temperatures would be from the result of not having enough pressure right?

Also, in the case of the liquid CO2, would a regulator in some sense act as a container allowing further expansion of CO2?
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:47 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=ArchAngel=- View Post
this fluctuation u speak of, if you have a regulator, the only fluctuation you would experience due to cold temperatures would be from the result of not having enough pressure right?
consider the regulator attached to any air source as a secondary pressure adjusting system, then it will make more sense. Also consider the fact that there is a HUGE f'ing difference between constant air co2 canisters, as opposed to a 12g. Mainly because there just isn't enough volume in a 12g as it empties as compares to say a 3.5oz or bigger tank.
And...

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=ArchAngel=- View Post
Also, in the case of the liquid CO2, would a regulator in some sense act as a container allowing further expansion of CO2?
An expansion chamber is like the empty portion of a co2 tank in that there is room for liquid co2 to expand into usable gas. Liquid in a gun that is not set up properly is both dangerous and fruitless.


Many years ago I was involved in a debate regarding regulated co2 and what would happen once this regulated gas traveled upstream towards the expansion chamber, or similar like system.
I argued that depending of certain particular conditions that once the regulated gas reached a place where it was allowed to rest; that there may be a chance that the gas COULD revert back to liquid. Or at the very least, the gas pressure might either rise or lower depending on the ambient temps
The debate went on and on as I continued to stand me ground. Until someone invited Glen Palmer to settle the score.
Guess what his explanation was?
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"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others which have been tried." Winston Churchill

THE-SHOOTIST Anyone chubbin' like me for this?
mailmanmike Since Monday! That's more than 4 hours though, so according to those cialis ads I should see my doctor.
tlane77 I think for a non-chemical chubby it's 6 hours before its time to see a doctor. So you should be good for another couple hours.
splattttttt I wasn't goin to google "chubbin" because I assumed it had to do with fat. The lard type, not the fun stuff. But what ever feelings Jeff's experiencing, then they must be of the fun like stuff...
tlane77 He's got a woody for your woods.
splattttttt land
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:57 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=ArchAngel=- View Post
im a noob when it comes to the mechanics of pb, but this fluctuation u speak of, if you have a regulator, the only fluctuation you would experience due to cold temperatures would be from the result of not having enough pressure right?

Also, in the case of the liquid CO2, would a regulator in some sense act as a container allowing further expansion of CO2?
FPS fluctuations won't be as dramatic with a reg/stab, but in cold temps some regs will still experience problems - specifically due to liquid CO2. Palmers states that their regs/stabs will perform normally regardless of the CO2 being in a liquid state, but I've seen other regs have issues with liquid.

I'm not sure how much expansion would take place in any given reg/stab - that's not it's purpose. To me, CO2 "expansion" is when CO2 sublimates from a liquid to a gas (specifically due to temperature) which will provide as much sustained pressure as possible. The trick is to find a happy medium between the available volume area you have (not too much or too little) vs. the average optimal pressure you can achieve (the average depends on temp, cooling due to rapid firing, and other variables). CO2 is a complex compound which creates many variables when trying to optimize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by splattttttt View Post
Also consider the fact that there is a HUGE f'ing difference between constant air co2 canisters, as opposed to a 12g. Mainly because there just isn't enough volume in a 12g as it empties as compares to say a 3.5oz or bigger tank.
Technically, there is no pressure difference between a 12 gram CO2 cartridge and a 12oz tank. They will both have the same pressure (850 PSI) at 70 regardless of size. The volume of an unopened CO2 vessel has nothing to do with pressure. Pressure is determined by temperature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by splattttttt View Post
An expansion chamber is like the empty portion of a co2 tank in that there is room for liquid co2 to expand into usable gas. Liquid in a gun that is not set up properly is both dangerous and fruitless.

Many years ago I was involved in a debate regarding regulated co2 and what would happen once this regulated gas traveled upstream towards the expansion chamber, or similar like system.
I argued that depending of certain particular conditions that once the regulated gas reached a place where it was allowed to rest; that there may be a chance that the gas COULD revert back to liquid. Or at the very least, the gas pressure might either rise or lower depending on the ambient temps
The debate went on and on as I continued to stand me ground. Until someone invited Glen Palmer to settle the score.
Guess what his explanation was?
Liquid CO2 will only sublimate (expand if you will) into gas by temperature or if it comes into contact with atmospheric pressure. Just because there is additional volume doesn't mean the liquid will sublimate into a gas. Additional volume (like an expansion chamber) may provide an opportunity for the CO2 to heat up - which will increase pressure. Yes, CO2 can go from a liquid to a gas, and back to a liquid again.

And yes, shooting liquid CO2 is not what you want to do.
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Last edited by Slim; 03-12-2013 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 03-12-2013, 08:40 PM   #29 (permalink)
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The way I understand the properties and characteristics of co2 is based mostly from experience in working with it and not so much as it is defined by technical terms.
I understand that co2 in a liquid state is devoid of pressure. That all is due to atmospheric temps, or temperatures surrounding it while in a encapsulated form. Allowing liquid or solid co2 to escape into the atmosphere (air), you will see clouds (sublimation).
Trapping that cloud in a enclosed environment ie; expansion chamber and it will sublimate into pressure. No air, no sublimation.

Most of the time, co2 will not be able to fully sublimate (expand) into usable pressure necessary to propel a paintball, until it's in the barrel. That is the result or air boiling liquid into a vapor.
Co2 need air.
True that higher temps will heat(expand) the liquid into a vapor, but with out the proper necessary room to allow for expansion, co2 will go BOOM!
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THE-SHOOTIST Anyone chubbin' like me for this?
mailmanmike Since Monday! That's more than 4 hours though, so according to those cialis ads I should see my doctor.
tlane77 I think for a non-chemical chubby it's 6 hours before its time to see a doctor. So you should be good for another couple hours.
splattttttt I wasn't goin to google "chubbin" because I assumed it had to do with fat. The lard type, not the fun stuff. But what ever feelings Jeff's experiencing, then they must be of the fun like stuff...
tlane77 He's got a woody for your woods.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:05 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splattttttt View Post
The way I understand the properties and characteristics of co2 is based mostly from experience in working with it and not so much as it is defined by technical terms.
I understand that co2 in a liquid state is devoid of pressure. That all is due to atmospheric temps, or temperatures surrounding it while in a encapsulated form. Allowing liquid or solid co2 to escape into the atmosphere (air), you will see clouds (sublimation).
Trapping that cloud in a enclosed environment ie; expansion chamber and it will sublimate into pressure. No air, no sublimation.

Most of the time, co2 will not be able to fully sublimate (expand) into usable pressure necessary to propel a paintball, until it's in the barrel. That is the result or air boiling liquid into a vapor.
Co2 need air.
True that higher temps will heat(expand) the liquid into a vapor, but with out the proper necessary room to allow for expansion, co2 will go BOOM!
I blame Obama.
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