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Old 02-17-2013, 09:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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regged vs. Unregged efficiency (12gram)

I've been talking to slim over the past few days and he has been a wealth of knowledge. Regged set ups seem optimal for getting the most shots out of a 12 gram. I'm just curious to see what other ppl are getting out of their markers with their respective set ups?

Details would be helpful when describing your results like upgrades and spring set up. Also your market setup be it vsc or back bottle.

I always say I have a goal with my snipers in terms of 12 gram efficiency its generally about 30 shots...... Is 30 plus shots off a powerlet possible without running a regged set up? What upgrades will give me a decent increase in efficiency besides a reg?

I normally would search this on my own but I'm on an I touch at a holiday inn in new york city. Thnx for ur responses!

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Old 02-17-2013, 09:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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30 shots and change is my target for all SC guns. Once I achieve a consistent 30 shots I am happy. It is definitely doable with a Phantom.

Get a good paint to barrel match, back bottle or dropout valve, and spring it properly. Once you have optimized those parameters you can go nuts with modifying the internals and regulating.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:10 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Any advice on springing?
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:13 PM   #4 (permalink)
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It's hard to give specific combinations but fundamentally speaking you are trying to minimize the dwell (how long the valve is open) while still allowing enough gas to propel the ball up to velocity. I would start with a good paint to bore match and use a slightly harder valve spring than main spring.

Please note that this is a very elementary explanation of tuning. You can get varying results by modifying your internals, opening up the bolt or powertube, and playing around with baffling your valve to prevent wasting liquid CO2. I personally don't delve too far into this, but there are lots of resources on MCB and elsewhere.

If you are looking at a regulated SC setup, keep talking to Slim. He seems to be well versed in it.

Start with this and maybe check here. Get yourself a drink and get comfortable.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:46 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I've always been under the impression that putting a reg on will always decrease efficiency over running unregged. Anything that equals more internal air passage volume = less efficiency...doesn't it?
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:52 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Bobbed valve, SSC triflute hammer, and red main with stock valve spring.
HSC set up with SS braided line
Add a dash of Carter insert ball matching...

I get 40 solid shots with 3 dinkers on a normal day Chronoing at 280 and under.

Best I had was 45 solid from a rear dropout I was testing. I just didn't like changing with it so I sold it.
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:23 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I generally use stock internals, silver main spring, stock valve spring, dropout valve, .684 12" Lapco barrel, detent rings and always get over 30 shots at usable speeds (start at 280 fps with a gradual slide to 220 fps) then a few lobs before its out of steam. Usually about 35 or so good shots. That said, the coldest I've played here in NZ was +6 or 7C and I think I used a tank that day.

I believe (and I could be wrong) that Nelson valves do not benefit from regs nearly as much as Snipers do. Russc has done some testing on 12g and regs on Snipers that showed a clear benefit, but I can't recall any conclusive tests on Nelson valved markers.

I think the biggest bang for your buck regarding improving efficiency is underboring your paint. Either a .681 Lapco, or freak boring your stock barrel and using inserts.
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:41 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I like what I'm seeing. Curious to see what some VSC set ups are getting. Regulating co2 isn't bad I know this and can be beneficial I've seen russc work on post 2k sniper platforms. With stock intervals and a good bore match I pull 30 shots on a powerlet and I'm regging down to about 500psi.

I just have a certain fondness for nelson valves and plus mike does the right thing by our community so I wanna support I just want to maximize my marker.

My reasoning behind NOT wanting a reg is because if the gun was meant to run with one mike would have put one on there AND if its not broken don't fix it LOL.

Please keep the feedback coming I'm starting to see the light!
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:14 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Keep in mind that Mike doesn't do some of the things he'd like to with the Phantom because he wants to maintain the price of the Phantom.

I set this up Historic Nelson Tuning Threads

It's a wealth of knowledge.

Bottom line, if it's a VSC Phantom we are talking about and the goal is 30 shots. It shouldn't be to difficult to do without a reg. The problem with Regging Nelsons is it's hard to get the pressure down low enough to be more efficient with the internals available. After all like Murf said, the reg adds volume.

My suggestion would be follow the link in this post and use the information from the NOG link there. B, like him or not, could work wonders with a Nelson. He's got a great writeup linked there on how to tune a Nelson.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Greenmtnphantom View Post
Keep in mind that Mike doesn't do some of the things he'd like to with the Phantom because he wants to maintain the price of the Phantom.
Exactly. The biggest manufacturing advancements the Phantom has seen in the past 25 years has been the removable barrel and then the VSC configuration. Because of this, the price of Phantoms hasn't changed much over the same time period (with the VSC set up costing much more than the base Phantom). For Mike to make a reg standard on all Phantoms, it would blow his existing price points out of the water, which will obviously impact sales. The Revolution has a built-in reg, and look at the price tag on that thing. While cool, it's not exactly "affordable" for most players.

I have to say that comparing the efficiency and gas usage in a Phantom to a what you get in a Sniper is like comparing apples to turnips. Even comparing old Snipers to new Snipers will yield an inaccurate comparison.

As I mentioned in my PMs, there are many variables that impact CO2 efficiency in any paintball gun. If you're looking to find out exactly what others have experienced while using 12-grams in Phantoms with and without stabilizers, and looking to recreate their results, then you'll need to compare apples to apples.

Here are just a few things you'll need to know if you really want to nail down truly accurate comparisons...

• What brand of 12-grams are being used?
• What brand of paint is being used?
• Was the paint fresh and as close to round as possible?
• Was the paint bore-matched to the barrel?
• Were barrel inserts used?
• What was the exact temperature?
• How many shots were fired?
• What was each shot chronographed at?
• How much time elapsed between shots exactly (a HUGE factor!!!)?
• What was the exact target FPS needed?
• What springs (main and valve) were used?
• What brand barrel was used?
• What length barrel was used?
• Was the barrel ported?
• Did the gun have a TPC or open velocity adjuster?
• What was the exact humidity percentage (barometric pressure)?
• Were the internals (bolt, hammer, valve tube) modified or stock?
• Was the valve body modified or stock?
• What was the stabilizer pressure was set at?
• How was the Phantom set up (BBA, VSC, hard line vs. SS hose, Hawaiian style, lever changer, drop out, etc.)?
• Did the gun have any check valves?
• Did the gun have any leaks (even the smallest leak makes a big difference)?
• Was a regulator or stabilizer used? if so, what brand?
• What elevation were the tests performed at?

Suffice it to say that to gather all this info would require quite a bit of effort to record all the details. But without all of this information, you'll just be getting vague generalizations. And even with all of this info provided, you'll still be comparing different guns, different paint, different 12-grams, and different climates which will probably be very different than your gun, your paint, your 12-grams and your climate. At the end of the day, you may never really be comparing apples to apples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by idkfa View Post
30 shots and change is my target for all SC guns. Once I achieve a consistent 30 shots I am happy. It is definitely doable with a Phantom.

Get a good paint to barrel match, back bottle or dropout valve, and spring it properly. Once you have optimized those parameters you can go nuts with modifying the internals and regulating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by idkfa View Post
It's hard to give specific combinations but fundamentally speaking you are trying to minimize the dwell (how long the valve is open) while still allowing enough gas to propel the ball up to velocity. I would start with a good paint to bore match and use a slightly harder valve spring than main spring.

Please note that this is a very elementary explanation of tuning. You can get varying results by modifying your internals, opening up the bolt or powertube, and playing around with baffling your valve to prevent wasting liquid CO2. I personally don't delve too far into this, but there are lots of resources on MCB and elsewhere.
^ Yes. This and this.
Keep it simple. Start with what is known to work, and tweak it from there. As mentioned, to get 30 shots per 12-gram there isn't any need to reinvent the wheel here, just improve a little on what you have (this may or may not include a stab). Some folks like stabs, some don't. All I know is that they work well for me with a considerable performance increase.

I have two Phantoms that have been built with identical configurations. Both have PPS Phantom stabs, the same barrels, same internals, etc. When spring rolls around, I'll be more than happy to conduct a controlled test to see how two Phantoms that are set up exactly the same perform against each other. Same temp, paint, 12-grams, etc. Apples to apples (technically, my apples to my apples). Then, I'll remove the stab on one to see the difference between the two and post up my results here. Not that this test will be anything new, but more to satisfy my own curiosity.
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