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Old 06-02-2013, 06:37 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CxT View Post
Any particular reason why the phantom dropout valves are slightly better at gas then? Granted mine is set to 240 fps (local field rules), but I'm seeing 55ish shots per 12g on a slight underbore.
The reason is that it is only myth. It sounds good and it is often repeated. Nothing more. Even with VSC Phantom you can have such like results.
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Old 06-02-2013, 07:56 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Is spring tuning more critical? Can adjusting your dwell give you more efficiency wile maintaining velocity?
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Old 06-02-2013, 11:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Dwell? On a Phantom?
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Old 06-02-2013, 11:25 PM   #14 (permalink)
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^Dwell just refers to the time the valve is open.

There is a balance between spring strength (main and valve) and hammer weight that gives you maximum efficiency at usable velocity.
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Old 06-03-2013, 12:38 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 3022 View Post
The reason is that it is only myth. It sounds good and it is often repeated. Nothing more. Even with VSC Phantom you can have such like results.
Yes you can get similar results, but using a dropout I consistently get more shots that I consider usable than I do using a vsc set up on the same marker with the same internals (only changing the valve body/setup). I've done this enough times that I'm convinced a dropout is more efficient... maybe this only applies to my marker? Now that I think about it, I've named it after the mythological figure Loki so perhaps that's why it works.
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Old 06-03-2013, 11:42 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Yes you can get similar results, but using a dropout I consistently get more shots that I consider usable than I do using a vsc set up on the same marker with the same internals (only changing the valve body/setup). I've done this enough times that I'm convinced a dropout is more efficient ...
Sure, everytime when you change the VSC for dropout you need make new tunning - you have different liquid/gas CO2 separation, different flow in the valve which affects the "recharge rate" in the valve chamber during shoot. You need set different dwell.

Imho are there good documented results (complete chrono tests) which showing that you can get with VSC at least better results than having most of the other users with droupout. The difference is only in the top records, which are most of the users/owners not able get.

Yes, the most efficient nelsons are commonly with "dropout" setup but it is imho more likely because it is a little easier to work with these markers and make the tunning with them (disassemble them, seal them and such like). "Dropout" is KISS like. That is imho the major reason why "efficiency masters" using this setup.
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Old 06-03-2013, 12:57 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Devolumizing does not improve 12 gram performance, by the way. The most efficient SC Nelsons I've used have quite a bit of valve chamber volume (Grey Ghost, Retro 7), this volume is necessary to make sure the co2 is fully in gas form before firing (which is the ACTUAL way to maximize efficiency... never ever fire liquid). Bobbing a phantom valve body doesn't make a big difference either way (it's more of a cosmetic custom option than anything).
Actually it can if you direct inject into the chamber. If you keep volume low through the drive train and let the CO2 liquid fully expand behind the ball then you can be very efficient.

It is not the easiest thing to do but was done successfully many times in the past by people that knew what they were doing and had the time to tune the guns.

E
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:31 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I'll have to confer with Mike on this and get back with you. It could be argued that a VSC setups biggest strength is it's biggest weakness when it comes to efficiency. Unless you're running a check valve behind the puncture pin all that extra volume does nothing for you.

To much volume is just as bad as not enough.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:51 AM   #19 (permalink)
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It is not the easiest thing to do but was done successfully many times in the past by people that knew what they were doing and had the time to tune the guns.

E
Not saying it doesn't work, but is it better than a valve configuration guaranteed to fire vapour only at maximum efficiency? there is absolutely no scientific way that firing controlled liquid from a 12 gram can be *more* efficient than firing controlled vapour, all other variables accounted for, due to the fact that a liquid-tuned config will shoot low velocity once the liquid has been spent. whereas a really max-tuned vapour config is actually tuned at less than full co2 pressure, and essentially is "sipping" the vapour with a controlled valve dwell (by springing and valve design) to fire just enough pressure to bring the ball to required velocity. that end result in propulsion terms can be achieved with liquid, but it will never maximize the co2 consumption from the cartridge in the same way.

TL;DR, it is possible to tune an SC marker for over 30 upper-velocity shots on liquid... and it is possible to get more than that with vapour.
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:10 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Actually, Apoc, no.

I will get back to you later but you have it backwards.

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