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Old 12-22-2014, 11:26 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
Just to throw some other information out there for everyone. I've been running a Phantom with a Sideline Stabilizer for a long time, stock springs, powertube, hammer (non-fluted), and an open face TPC. According to my gauge, I'm running at about 450 PSI, so 450 +/- like 100 PSI because it's an old gauge and who knows. But my point is, lower-than-normal pressure is perfectly fine, works great. Using a bucket changes in the VASA and taking one shot every 1-2 seconds, I'm getting mid-30 usable shots. One problem I recently noticed was a bit of farting, which I attribute to the lower pressure in the valve. I'm not sure it's actually a problem, since it's been doing it since I set it up this way, and it doesn't noticeably impact performance, but I turned it up a bit, and I'm thinking that should take care of it, though I haven't had a chance to test it yet.

The point is, running at lower pressure, 500 or 600 PSI, you can get more out of a 12ie even at lower temps, when the output pressure of a 12ie won't reach the usual 850 PSI or so. Even if it's only 600 or 650, you're still okay, whereas with an unregged marker, those shots are dropping off badly from your normal velocity.

Short version: Phantoms can operate at what you might consider mid-pressure, and doing this helps squeeze a bit more out of cold 12 grams.
You mention that you're getting mid-30 usable shots, but don't mention the exact temp and humidity you are operating in, what speed you are chronoing at (string average), what your bore match is, paint quality (dimpled, out-of-round, weeping, etc), or what you consider "usable shots". I consider "usable" to be 250 FPS and above, as anything under 250 FPS usually results in a bounce at normal playing distance. Without providing details on these key variables, it's impossible to state definitively that operating at a lower pressure equals better efficiency. After all, this claim is the opposite of how 12-gram powered guns operate - less pressure = less efficiency.

Again, I think it's important to mention that stabilizers aren't designed to maximize efficiency. They stabilize pressure fluctuations that occur due to shifts in temperature (and "block liquid CO2" per Palmer's) to maximize consistency.

Here in CT, the temps have been around 32 F. That's about 490 PSI. If the temps in NJ are in the 40s, then the PSI will be around 560 PSI - which is just over what your gauge readings are. If you turned your pressure up on the stab, then the stabilized pressure might be around the same as the vessel pressure - depending on the temp. I'm not sure what benefit the stab would have at that point.

BTW, one turn of the screw equals an adjustment of about 100 psi average - per Palmer's web site.
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Old 12-22-2014, 10:21 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I can't tell you exact temp and humidity, don't keep careful track, but let's go with "cold" and "low" with a good match (won't roll through, won't turn blue blowing through) to reasonably fresh (1-2 months stored cool/dry/rotated) marbs. I also count 250+ as usable. A couple of seconds between shots, 1-3.

But yeah, my point isn't that it's going to optimize efficiency at optimal conditions. Run it unregged if it's 80*F, the 12ie is putting out plenty of juice, no problem. But at, say, 40*F, with the stab set to a lower pressure, you should get more usable shots vs. unregged. Maybe 35 instead of, say, 25 or 30. The trade-off is that at optimal conditions, you'll still get those same 35 shots, instead of 40+. If you're okay with the seasonal fluctuations, then don't go for it, but it's nice if you want a reliable number of shots without having to worry about ambient conditions.
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Old 12-22-2014, 10:44 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me the only way to achieve the same velocity at lower input pressure at the same temp, pressure, and humidity is to increase the time the valve is open (dwell) increasing the volume of CO2 used.

I don't think a regulator will guarantee better efficiency. It seems that a magic combination of input pressure, dwell, paint, and barrel will change as conditions (temp, pressure, and humidity) change. What magically worked one day will fail to the next. It's probably more useful to understand how your gun is performing under current conditions. Maybe it's worth it to fire a whole 12g over the chrono before every day of play?

Slim has posted many good facts on the properties of CO2. If you are unfamiliar with Boils Law it's also worth reviewing.
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Old 12-22-2014, 11:40 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 1shot View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me the only way to achieve the same velocity at lower input pressure at the same temp, pressure, and humidity is to increase the time the valve is open (dwell) increasing the volume of CO2 used.
Right. Lower pressure, turn up the TPC to compensate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1shot View Post
What magically worked one day will fail to the next.
Normally with 12 grams, yes, that's the case, but the point of the reg is to fix this problem. Run the marker at 800 psi, and it'll work one way when the 12ie is putting out 850 psi, and it will behave differently when it's putting out 500 psi. Run it at 450, it behaves the same in both cases. And that isn't unique to stock class Phantoms; playing in the cold often, this was a major impetus for converting my 98 Custom to low pressure years ago, when my go-to tank was a 16 oz. CO2. Play in 90 degrees, or 25, didn't matter.

Quote:
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Maybe it's worth it to fire a whole 12g over the chrono before every day of play?
Always a good idea.
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Old 02-20-2015, 05:23 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I would like more info on this statement:
"A third alternative would be to use the CCI (Revolution) regulator which is significantly cheaper, and accomplishes the same thing - stabilizing the pressure before the valve."
Is the only advantage of the PPS over the CCI the ease of velocity adjustment? Will the CCI reg give just as consistent co2 shot to shot (as opposed to throughout the day)?


As a side note. I have a very odd playing environment for my nelson pumps. I play in the caves at Jaegers paintball in KC. So... It is the exact same temperature every time I play regardless of season or time of day. They seem very consistent to me. I am worried about taking these same markers to Slim's stock-class day.
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Old 02-21-2015, 01:56 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jellyghost View Post
I would like more info on this statement:
"A third alternative would be to use the CCI (Revolution) regulator which is significantly cheaper, and accomplishes the same thing - stabilizing the pressure before the valve."
Is the only advantage of the PPS over the CCI the ease of velocity adjustment? Will the CCI reg give just as consistent co2 shot to shot (as opposed to throughout the day)?

As a side note. I have a very odd playing environment for my nelson pumps. I play in the caves at Jaegers paintball in KC. So... It is the exact same temperature every time I play regardless of season or time of day. They seem very consistent to me. I am worried about taking these same markers to Slim's stock-class day.
Yes, the big advantage that the PPS stab has over the CCI reg is that the stab can be fine-tuned, whereas the reg can not. This makes tweaking the velocity extremely simple, and is a nice feature over the CCI velocity tool adjustment.

Because you play in an area that has a consistent temp, buying a stab or reg would be a waste of money for you. For the stock-class game in Ludlow, it's not unusual to see pretty big swings in the temp. Last Fall it was in the upper 30s/lower 40s overnight, and warmed up to the mid to high 60s in the afternoon. Yes, it effected consistency and efficiency over the course of the day, but I didn't notice anyone having major issues because of it. Only a very small number of players use a reg/stab here, so everyone else will be facing the same challenges as far as temps and humidity go.

Again, if you have the cash to burn, a reg or stab is a nice option for temp shifts. If not, then it's not that hard to make due without one.
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Old 10-07-2017, 08:20 PM   #57 (permalink)
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How do you guys adjust the velocity with a palmer? Just moved to WA from HI. The weather here is random as hell. Got my hands on a male stab and have no idea where to start. Do I set the TPC flush with the bolt and the flush the adjustment screw on the palmer prior to tweaking anything? Do I start turning in the TPC and then use the stab for finer adjustment or just leave the TPC as is and just adjust everything through stab?
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:55 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleHead87 View Post
How do you guys adjust the velocity with a palmer? Just moved to WA from HI. The weather here is random as hell. Got my hands on a male stab and have no idea where to start. Do I set the TPC flush with the bolt and the flush the adjustment screw on the palmer prior to tweaking anything? Do I start turning in the TPC and then use the stab for finer adjustment or just leave the TPC as is and just adjust everything through stab?
The weather may be random, but what is the average temp? The temperature is what matters when dealing with CO2. If you aren't experiencing massive fluctuations in temperature (+/- 20 to 40 degrees in a matter of a few hours), then the stab is going to be of little value. Here in New England during the Spring and Fall seasons, fluctuations like that are not uncommon. I would think Hawaii wouldn't see fluctuations on that scale, but have never had the pleasure of visiting.

As far as adjusting your velocity, I don't use my stab to adjust velocity. You certainly can, and it is easier than using the TPC. However, I make minor adjustments to the TPC, and keep the stab set to compensate for any temp variations. That's just my personal preference, as I want to keep the stab set at a constant pressure. In reality, once I've got everything adjusted the way I want it (275 FPS), and the temp is in the normal operating range (70s to 80s), it's a "set it and forget it" deal.

I'd recommend getting the gun tuned to shooting 275 FPS at an average temp, and then making any adjustments via the stab if you need to. I wouldn't get too hung up on chrono readings. Averaging is critical. Don't forget that paint quality is a major factor, and can affect accuracy, consistency and efficiency more than any other variable. A bad batch of paint can dive you insane at the chrono. Keep that in mind if you're being vexed by inconsistencies. If the average is good, then you are good.
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