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Old 07-11-2012, 03:24 AM   #1281 (permalink)
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For the millionth time more flow is not the answer
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More flow
was never the goal here! This thread was started to make the nelson valve more efficient. Early on it was realized that this could be accomplished by smoothing out the gas flow. First, eliminate bottle necking of gas at the cup seal. Second, make the smoothest flow path for the gas so it can get to, and act on the ball as quickly as possible. There was a series of post about just how big you could make the passage holes at the cup seal and still keep the tube strength. Another on if it was possible to increase the total area of the passage holes to be greater than the PT outlet hole. And yet another on just how much you could increase the flow rate to. Could we make a valve equal to cocker lp flow capabilities? Lots of ideas but not much being made to test them.

So I made my LP valve just to prove it was all possible. I made it to show the extreme possibilities. However it needs more volume behind the valve and a very light hammer to shorten the dwell time. My design has some bugs but it was a huge jump in efficiency.

However… More Flow at lower pressure w/ a short controlled valve dwell, to release an exact volume repeatedly… that IS the answer.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:37 AM   #1282 (permalink)
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I'm really glad to see that this hasn't died.

Sadly it's to technical for me to be of much assistance other than saying that I can still test things when it gets to that point, I can still help fund and I think you guys are doing an awesome job.

Thank you all that have helped and taken on this massive project.
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Since this thread started with boobs what are we supposed to derail it with?
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:46 PM   #1283 (permalink)
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I have read the entire thread and you have made some interesting new solutions and I think you are getting close to perfect. The new valves have almost maximum flow for a drop in upgrade. And I think you would be able to drop the operating pressure quite a bit when you have tuned them correctly.

I've thought about what someone said (I think it was russc) that we needed a valve that can close more quickly and not waste CO2. I'm not an engineer, so this is may be very stupid. And I'm afraid most of you doesn't want to use a 9V in your nelson gun.

But why not use an electromagnet to close the valve instead of springs? springs never "stay" at their maximum open position, they immediately go to closed position at the same speed as they open. If we use an electromagnet, the valve opens quickly with no resistance and we can control how long we want the valve open, with the use of a simple programmable board. The board and the 9V could be hidden in the grip. The cupseal would have to be made of a ferrous metal, as steel.

Here's a picture to explain.



You could use a microswitch (2) to tell the board when the hammer is hitting the powertube. The board would the start a timer and when the timer hits zero it would activate the electromagnet (1). In this example I used copper-wire in coils with a iron core as the electormagnet. Maybe there is a better alternative?

Keep in mind this is only an idea, I dont know if this has already proven to not work. And maybe you dont want to add electronic components to a nelson

And please, before you bash me for my grammar mistake, read my signature
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:02 PM   #1284 (permalink)
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/\ hahahaha, that's a hilarious concept actually. That would probably be the best case for a balanced Nelson valve, otherwise you'd need a hell of a strong magnet to open the valve against the air pressure.
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:13 PM   #1285 (permalink)
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/\ hahahaha, that's a hilarious concept actually. That would probably be the best case for a balanced Nelson valve, otherwise you'd need a hell of a strong magnet to open the valve against the air pressure.
It is a bit crazy, and probably very impractical too.

The magnet only closes the valve, the hammer still opens it. The magnet replaces the spring, but only activates on the closing part, this will in theory lead to a very quick opening and a very quick closing.

Or do you mean that it will need a spring to keep the valve open for some time when the hammer already has struck the powertube?
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:14 PM   #1286 (permalink)
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I've thought about what someone said (I think it was russc) that we needed a valve that can close more quickly and not waste CO2

But why not use an electromagnet to close the valve instead of springs? springs never "stay" at their maximum open position, they immediately go to closed position at the same speed as they open.
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/\ hahahaha, that's a hilarious concept actually. That would probably be the best case for a balanced Nelson valve, otherwise you'd need a hell of a strong magnet to open the valve against the air pressure.
Magnets, as in rare earth types will work. Just no one wants to try it. I would, if I had the means to.
Great idea.
I don't think it needs electronics though.

just to keep it closed Russ. An idea.
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:17 PM   #1287 (permalink)
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Magnets, as in rare earth types will work. Just no one wants to try it. I would, if I had the means to.
Great idea.
I don't think it needs electronics though.
If you use permanent magnets, they will still try to close the valve when the hammer tries to open it, and therefore slow it down, and waste gas (ports are only partly open). Electromagnets gives you the option of activating them when you need them, when you close the valve. I am bad at explaining but hopefully this makes more sense
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:22 PM   #1288 (permalink)
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The magnet replaces the spring, but only activates on the closing part, this will in theory lead to a very quick opening and a very quick closing.
Ah, I thought you were proposing something like the MQ valve.

Yes I suppose it would work. Much easier to make it just assist on closing, but the same thing can be done in an elegant fashion through air pressure. That's exactly what y0da's latest valve is designed to do: open easily, and boost closing force once there is a pressure differential in the valve. It's self-timing, and doesn't require batteries.
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:25 PM   #1289 (permalink)
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Ah, I thought you were proposing something like the MQ valve.

Yes I suppose it would work. Much easier to make it just assist on closing, but the same thing can be done in an elegant fashion through air pressure. That's exactly what y0da's latest valve is designed to do.
Oh, I have seen y0da latest valve, but I don't understand how it works. How can you make a "slam valve" when you have gas of the same pressure infront of the "slammer" too? Or am I missing out something?

EDIT: and this valve has one advantage, faster opening speed.

EDIT2: but if you made it to assist on both opening and closing you would need a main spring, as the hammer is not needed. So the pumpstroke would be super-smooth, you would only have a return spring. That is almost cheating!
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Last edited by broder; 07-16-2012 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:31 PM   #1290 (permalink)
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At rest, the valve is pressurized evenly. When you open the valve, the gas rushes out, dropping the pressure around the cupseal.

By isolating a small area behind the cupseal, we can preserve some high pressure air momentarily, and end up with a "piston" that helps to push the valve closed.

The speed at which the valve opens is already improved by the conical cupseal face that he's added to the design. It reaches its fully open state faster than a normal nelson valve.
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