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Old 03-29-2013, 07:17 PM   #1421 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wizbaa View Post
The springless design works for the phantom, heres the second generation that i've been working with. Props to Silentnuke for the flash of inspiration, this uses the stock(enlarged) air passages.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/gallery/.../WMWPopper.jpg

The cup seal is pushed backwards into the valve port when fired, sealing the valve chamber off. The full input pressure then acts on the end of the cup seal pushing it closed once the difference in pressures between valve chamber and valve input is great enough.
I'm really liking where this is going.

What can I do to help?
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I don't so much make money, as provide a conduit for it's movement.
Stock class = 12grams and a stick feed. End discussion.
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Old 03-30-2013, 01:22 AM   #1422 (permalink)
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Old 03-30-2013, 02:43 AM   #1423 (permalink)
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Man there are a lot of posts already in this thread, i've waded my way thru a lot of it but I cant remember every detail. Can you give me your solution to the nelson problem once more? Serious, im all ... eyes.

I would like to elaborate a little on the weight/friction issue you bring up. The new pointy cup is made from aluminum, even with an oring im sure they weight the same or less than a brass cup.

The friction issue is an interesting one because while playing around with the set up, it seemed the best was to get the edge of the seal as close as possible to the edge of the hole without actually entering it. To that end I made several different length cups so we could see where the poppet sweet spot is. I sent those to Silentnuke with a modified valve body and a few other things to test.

GMP: You can help by just sitting tight for a bit, I finally picked up a chronograph to do some more testing of my own. One thing I have learned the hard way is that the Open-TPC doesnt like brittle paint, bore matching breaks a lot and over boring is inefficient(450-500psi). I need to pick up a case of more durable paint to lay down a decent string of numbers, between rollouts and constant barrel breaks I cant get any intelligible readings. The paint is some Evil "Tournament" grade, its breaks with the first drop
onto concrete. Its a bagged catastrophe!

Here is the best set of chronograph results Silentnuke has gotten so far. Thanks for generating some great info dude.

"Conditions-
Wind calm
05 C
Altitude 4,481ft
Density Altitude 4,000 ft (pressure altitude adjusted for non standard condition) the density the ball feels as it flys through the air. The higher the density altitude the easier the ball will have moving through the air.

Stock parts- pump handle, bolt,TPC, hammer, barrel, and right hand feed.
Spring: blue main spring
Regulator CCM set at 450psi
TPC turns in to maintain range 280-291fps, 6 full turns screwed in or tightening.
Tank: HPA gorilla and myth reg output 450psi
Paint Valken fresh bag of infinity
Paint bore average of 10 is .684

First ten chronograph readings in order after setting the the marker near 285 for 5 shots: 291, 287, 283, 287, 280, 283, 283, 281, 282, 287. Time between shots was a full stroke."
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:28 AM   #1424 (permalink)
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yoda already drew it more than a year ago

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/4356/hatsmodel2.jpg

you only need restriction and a high force. Yes, it would be nice to have a balanced valve, but I think given the other constraints of the problem its kind of silly to take out a ton of force then add it back in.

With the balanced design that pilots out to a face (you know, the one I've been selling for a year) you get over unity in terms of the force balance (closing force can > opening force) but there is NO evidence to suggest that's needed for a maximally efficient gun.

You only need the valve closure to be SUFFICIENTLY FAST such that you can optimize the rest of the system. Its clear you can get that without adding all this cruft to the system. If you're talking about semis where the kick and ROF matter a lot more, then by all means figuring out a balanced valve setup is nice

but for making this system more efficient? not needed and counterproductive
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:35 AM   #1425 (permalink)
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almost 2 years ago actually

http://www.ogrestrength.com/phantom1.PNG
http://www.ogrestrength.com/phantom2.PNG

Nelson Valve Evolution (Project Leprechaun)

and if you're wondering why i never built it its because no one cares and pump players have no money (or, put more properly, have the good sense to spend the money on paint)

I also think I can get 90% of the way there just with a 3d printed part if i ever feel like it. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader since i'm sick of giving this **** away
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:01 AM   #1426 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
almost 2 years ago actually

http://www.ogrestrength.com/phantom1.PNG
http://www.ogrestrength.com/phantom2.PNG

Nelson Valve Evolution (Project Leprechaun)

and if you're wondering why i never built it its because no one cares and pump players have no money (or, put more properly, have the good sense to spend the money on paint)

I also think I can get 90% of the way there just with a 3d printed part if i ever feel like it. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader since i'm sick of giving this **** away
First off I'm no engineer or air smith but as I was reading through all of the pages here I thought about a design similar to what you have here. Yours is obviously way better than what I was thinking of and I think it has potential. It looks like you can get massive flow out of it with the most simplistic design yet, in my opinion.

Second, not all pump players lack moneys. In fact those of us with high end Nelson's would be the same people that are looking for something like this! Build it man!!!
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:18 PM   #1427 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
almost 2 years ago actually

http://www.ogrestrength.com/phantom1.PNG
http://www.ogrestrength.com/phanNG

Nelson Valve Evolution (Project Leprechaun)

and if you're wondering why i never built it its because no one cares and pump players have no money (or, put more properly, have the good sense to spend the money on paint)

I also think I can get 90% of the way there just with a 3d printed part if i ever feel like it. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader since i'm sick of giving this **** away
I bought a 130 dollar hammer... Then i put a 100 dollar reg on it. Then a 100 piece of optics. Then an 80 dollar mini air tank that only gets roughly 100 shots. Im currently paying mcneer to build a few things for me. All so i can shoot first strikes as accurately as i can. If you built that thing and lt has the potential to increase the performance of my marker without needing to rebuild it. Ill buy it period. That goes for any product compatible with my nelson. Hell i may buy two and put the other in my trracer
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:08 PM   #1428 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wizbaa View Post
...

That being said, take care in the design of the sear mechanism. Your going to put a tremendous strain on it, and if it moves backwards even the tiniest amount your going to leak down the barrel. Have a look at how an automag sear works, you may be able to adapt the idea to work in your concept.
Bassically I have still doubts that even what you are here doing has still something to do with nelson :-). For me, nelson is above all synonym for simplicity...

Im aware of the the problem with the Mule sear. But imho he can be handled by proper construction and it should be only experimental marker which should only show how efficient it can be. With mag construction im familiar, but he has imho disadvantages for this application.
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:19 AM   #1429 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Keebler View Post
I bought a 130 dollar hammer... Then i put a 100 dollar reg on it. Then a 100 piece of optics. Then an 80 dollar mini air tank that only gets roughly 100 shots. Im currently paying mcneer to build a few things for me. All so i can shoot first strikes as accurately as i can. If you built that thing and lt has the potential to increase the performance of my marker without needing to rebuild it. Ill buy it period. That goes for any product compatible with my nelson. Hell i may buy two and put the other in my trracer
That reminds me on my New Hammer and friend Spyder Victor II: before years after some tunning what I have performed on his Spyder (common hammer lightening, trigger work and valve work along instructables on net) we came to chrono. I have said: "I do not like these dumb aluminium toys, they are to light and cheap build. Good markers are manufactured from decent materials. You will see."

New Hammer (on liquid CO2, with siphoned tank): 271,271,271,272,271.

"Strange, but do not await that same from this semi-automatic toy."

Spyder (with aftermarket JJ barrel and antisiphoned 12oz tank): 283,283,283,283.

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Old 04-15-2013, 05:42 AM   #1430 (permalink)
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After my last tests (and new efficiency record ) with my Kingmann New Hammer I have other, different doubts about... "usability" of this thread. I will not critise the idea or waste here more time with unusefull, unconstructiove discusion, but... along my last experiences I think simply only, that the classic nelson valve itself is not the biggest problem of common nelsons. You can work with the common conventional nelson valve and have really great efficiency... or at least far better efficiency, than most of common nelons having...

Generally I think that the "secret" is not hidden in nelson valve reconstruction, but in small changes in many different parts which needs be perfected and balanced togever. With only valve reconstruction you can even improve some aspects of the valve and ruin by that the overall efficiency and consistency of your marker, because other parts are not preparet to ulitize such like aspects.

I mus say now, that many my older theories about efficiency of SC markers were incorect and misleading, or at least very inaccurate. For exception excessive max. airflow is not neccesiary for great efficiency... especially when we working with nelsons - I was fan of big crossections in air passages, but when you have straight path from valve to barrel chamber (what is the common advantage of nelsons), then you evidently do not need have so big crossections (it is something like highway and city traffic - in the same crossection you can have on highway bigger "flow")...

I will put new article in Pump Markers section about the new stock class "efficiency theories", where some should be cleared, but I need time to sumarize the ideas and even make other tests...

My "fast advices" for nelsons (regarding efficiency) are now:
- barrel ID should be smaller than .685"
- barrel lenght should be at least 9"
- cup seal OD should be small as possible (what allows existing valve nut)
- cup seal lenght should be not bigger as OD (ideally 1:1)
- cup seal should have rounded all edges on side facing to valve chamber
- valve nut should have removed some threads near cup seal sealing face (old Tigershark style mod)
- powertube should have roundet edges of input holes (modification in style of WGP Ranger)
- bigger powertube ID helps... but does not solves all - use big ID if you can, if not you can work good even with small
- between powertube and valve nut should be very tight clearance
- no ventury bolt (they only limiting flow)
- no bolt velocity adjuster (they comonly wasting to much gas by leaks)
- hammer should be lightened to weight 15-26 grams (heavier hammer = bouncing and slower valve operation)
- hammer spring should be strong as possible (= confortable for player)
- valve spring... should be tested different springs, because effects can be sometimes not estimated

BTW: Mule project is momentally stopped because problems in manufacturing (I do not own the necessary machining equpment and from the common formula quality x costs x time I have chosen time like variable and the man who does the work has now some personal/time problems). For my ZXS-200 I will make "simple" balanced nelson valve (original broken powertube and valve nut needs replacement anyway, so why not use "hi-tech" replacement), but likewise Mule, it looks be now long-term project. Short-term project are further minor improvements on New Hammer - I will cross the border 500J/12g with him.
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