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Old 04-17-2013, 03:10 PM   #1431 (permalink)
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Having a marker that's efficient is one thing, having a marker that is reliable, easy to maintain, and shoots true every time, is another. I believe that the Nelson type of mechanics is at its peak. I don't think that there is anything more that can be done to make it more efficient other than maybe, polishing the internals and cleaning. Simplicity is the key, I don't believe I've changed a spring or replaced a power tube in a long time. I'm a believer in not having to worry about shots dropping off because I forgot how many shots I'm in on this 12gram. I use the 20 shots per and change out rule. I think I could get about 30, but why push it. I get 20 solid shots. And anyway, playing stockgun, lucky if I shot 40 balls in a game.
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Old 04-17-2013, 04:24 PM   #1432 (permalink)
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Well, that's what we are trying to find out.
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Stock class = 12grams and a stick feed. End discussion.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:55 AM   #1433 (permalink)
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Now I do not think that he have archieved the optimal rate between simplicity / reliability / efficiency. The common nelson markers are simply to much inperfect in many details. Natural disadvantages of the basic nelson construction having still not superiority about manufacturing/design flaws. The paintguns are now product of more than 30 years of evolution, but in industry, in many cases it needs alot longer to find the optimal constructions even when the final product is relatively simple and the all key technologies are known.

Everytime when someone comes with option that it is better having only 60-75% of the current max. efficiency but with perfected other characteristics... then he is right : -)... but the border of the max. efficiency has been everytime pushed forward by the unwise peoples who were not satisfied with the current efficiency.

Generally, when we do not speak about record results and "efficiency races", then the efficiency tunning goes commonly with reliability, usability and comfortability of marker, not against/opposite them. Most of the good efficiency mods will not ruin other aspects of the marker, they will commonly even improve them. The only problem is that like every aspect, even efficiency tunning should be not performed up to extreme/one-sided.

Im not sure that it is good way using regulators or balanced valves to get better performance or efficiency, because there are at least more seals, more parts what can be broken and which needs be - at least theoretically - inspected during maintenance. But the existing results showing that we can get 470-490 Joules of KE from one powerlet even with classic constructions, which are easy to manufacture and maintain; without problems. So there is imho no practicall reason, why be satisfied with less than 450J/12g from modern SC nelson paintgun.

The benefit of efficiency is not only in number of usable shoots per powerlet. Imho the efficiency tunning can be not substituted in "prepraration of the marker for the game". Marker what uses less gas per shoot, works efficiently, marker which works efficiently commonly = marker what works better. Efficiency is commonly connected with consistecy. When you can get with marker stable performance curve during shooting, then you will have commonly consistent performance in different temperatures and pressures... there are simply many gains of efficiency tunning… and there are only few ways how come to know the marker so good like during efficiency tunning.

When goes about usability... with most of my tunned markers I can get 50+ "usable shoots" in game (simply because 22-28 cosistent shoots trought chrono are commonly 40-50 consistent shoots in game with a lot smaller ROF). That means that I do not need change the powerlets actually - one powerlet is enought for me for common half-day of playing. So why having super-efficient marker? Because he is quieter, calmer, "efficienter".
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:14 PM   #1434 (permalink)
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In my messing around with tuning I've noticed a big difference in the amount of recoil of the gun when firing with a harder main spring. It seems to me that besides efficiency, we also reduce stress on internal parts of the gun as a byproduct of tuning, which can lead to increased reliability.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:04 PM   #1435 (permalink)
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Wizbaa Valve

I think it is time to chime in. I have been working with Wizbaa for a month or two using his design concept. I have seen some great results.

Here are my most recent findings.
Configuration:
ASP Roundhead cocker body
CP inline reg
Wizbaa Valve springless
Oversized Powertube from Wizbaa
Blue main spring
Stock hammer
Asp open TPC, 1/2 of a turn in.
Valve pressure is 400psi
Bore .684
Paint: Valken Redemption average .683

Conditions: Utah
Wind Calm
Temperature 02C
Altitude 4481ft
Density Altitude 3600ft ( the high the number the easier the ball travels through the air).

Chronograph numbers: 285, 284, 282, 282, 284, 287,285,284,285,287

Pictures


Enjoy.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:52 AM   #1436 (permalink)
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I think it is time to chime in. I have been working with Wizbaa for a month or two using his design concept. I have seen some great results. ...
Very well... From this we can see that nelsons can work with low pressure, big airflow and with "decent" muzzle velocity. But it shows nothing about "efficiency". Have you dried shoots per 12g or air consuption (propelent weight loss) per shoot?

Last edited by 3022; 04-20-2013 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:07 AM   #1437 (permalink)
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When we speak about "low-tech" nelsons (classic PT, no balanced valves, no regs), then this is - along my last experiments - imho the best valve setup:



- powertube modified along WGP Ranger PT (rounded input holes in PT)
- valve nut with some removed thread and by that prologed collar
- cup seal with minimal OD (to fit in the existing valve nut) and rounded back edges, with only minimal seating space for the spring

After such like mods, for optimal efficiency it necessary reduce dwell and speed up the valve operation - altrought you will do not entlarge the PT ID with such like mods, the overall flow inceases and the dwell needs be reduced to get the same velocity with max. efficiency.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:22 AM   #1438 (permalink)
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Chronograph numbers: 285, 284, 282, 282, 284, 287,285,284,285,287


Enjoy.
I would not argue with that string.

And 3022, efficiency really does not necessarily mean a valve is equally as consistent. No.

Personally, I've always been in favor of a valve that generally nets best accuracy than simply how many shots I can squeeze out of a twelvee.
Best accuracy, equals best fire power and not the other way around.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:07 AM   #1439 (permalink)
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... 3022, efficiency really does not necessarily mean a valve is equally as consistent. No. ...
Exactly it is incorrect speak about consistency of the valve itself. Bassicaly every valve can be consistent. Consistency is more conected with other parts of marker - combination of valve & hammer & springs, air channels from valve to bolt, air channels from powerlet to valve chamber... trigger operation, striking mechanism operation... barrel & paint combination... detents... bolt sealing...

Anyway... you are right that efficiency does not necessarily, not everytime mean consistency... but when we speak about SC efficiency then commonly they are connected - at least because commonly when you doing SC efficiency tunning, one of the main problems here is how get the consistency, nearly the same fps, flat performance curve during all shoots per powerlet. So in practice efficient SC marker = consistent marker.

Imho great SC setup converted to CA will be everytime very consistent. Theoretically you can have CA setup what will be more consistent than such like converted SC setup, but practically it is imho very rare. Perhaps you can use come parts/methods in CA setup what improving consistency and what are unsuitable for SC... but practically it looks not so that they having such like benefits. Main benefit is perhaps that the CA consistency tunning is easier than SC "consistency tunning" because you having here simply "Constant" Air.

Anyway what for consistency do you will? Before years I have hat +/- 1 fps consistency with my only light modified cheap Kingmann New Hammer (lightened hammer, different springs, polished internals, polished barrel) on liquid CA CO2, with really best paint. What for evolution do you will? +/- 0.1 fps consistency?

Last edited by 3022; 04-20-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:47 PM   #1440 (permalink)
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I ran with my setup half the day on Saturday. The valve works great. I love how smooth the the pump stroke is. Using the blue main spring and only turning it in about a half of turn makes it feel like my CCM. Yes, I have done some extra stuff to my internals to help to smooth out the pump stroke. The inside of the body and internals have been coated with a dry ceramic lube. The arm was die cut so that I could attach
the bolt to the pump arm using the nylock hole. The outside is Cerakote with a Matt finish.

I did have a problem with the front body to trigger frame screw coming loose. I was pumping along and I pulled the whole top half off with a pump stroke. Gratefully I didn't lose any parts. I think I may have to use a dab of blue lock tight on the screw to help it stay tight.

Otherwise the performance was awesome! I really enjoy the feel the marker has now. I have always loved Nelson based pumps but this marker is really starting to look and feel like I want it to.

To those looking to increase the shot count from a 12g. I ran a test with a four 12ies.

Configuration: same as before

Conditions: today in Utah
Wind calm
Temp 06C
Altitude 4481
Density altitude: 4700ft
Valve pressure 400psi
Bore .687
Paintball .684-.687 GI Rec Sport
12g Crossman
Time between shots fired, one whole pump stroke, no auto triggering.
First 3 numbers 280,281,278
Last chronograph numbers in order 280, 276,275, 262, 212

The 262fps had a 370psi pressure reading from the valve. The 212fps was below 350psi. After that the remaining gas left through the barrel. Most likely because the springless valve really wants 400psi input to work properly.

I ran a 12 gram through the marker 4 times and got similar numbers.

Shot count on for each 12g
40, 38, 45, 41

I think several more shots could be squeezed out if I fired more slowly.

Enjoy feel free to ask questions or request a test.
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