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Old 04-23-2014, 08:12 PM   #1761 (permalink)
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I mentioned the idea of using a heater around the CO2 source about 60 pages ago. I even got a pair of electric gloves so I could take out the heating elements and incorporate them into the gun, haven't done it yet though :-/ Also, if we are looking to get more volume out of the valve why haven't anybody chimed in on the Gargoyle? If we aren't gonna use a valve spring then you can take out the valve insert on the RTR valve and have loads of room
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Old 04-23-2014, 08:16 PM   #1762 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by eddielives75 View Post
I mentioned the idea of using a heater around the CO2 source about 60 pages ago. I even got a pair of electric gloves so I could take out the heating elements and incorporate them into the gun, haven't done it yet though :-/ Also, if we are looking to get more volume out of the valve why haven't anybody chimed in on the Gargoyle? If we aren't gonna use a valve spring then you can take out the valve insert on the RTR valve and have loads of room
Splatttt mentioned the Gargoyle WAY back. Not sure what page.
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Old 04-23-2014, 08:53 PM   #1763 (permalink)
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Kind of a funky time of year to start a class, isn't it?

While you are in the neighborhood, see if you can find a temperature-entropy diagram for CO2. It's actually more thermo than heat transfer, but it can give you real heat values and you can compare them to adiabatic and isothermal values. It will tell you the total energy load for dumping a shot, but it will not tell you exactly where that energy will go, just somewhere between the 12gram and the end of the barrel (or a little beyond). We associate snow with poor efficiency, but cold muzzle blast shows that the CO2 is still picking up heat at that point.

There are good places to pick up heat transfer, and aluminum isn't far off from copper (that you will see in class). Check out stainless too, and you will see why stock automags do not perform as well as other designs for CO2. Hopefully they still cover Heilser charts; reg shape is the other sadness of the original mag and heat transfer.

Quarter system. A gift and a curse.

I've used my Thermo books tables for CO2 gas before to try and find theoretical efficiency without heat transfer (I got 276 shots). You can find how much energy is left (as enthalpy) when it expands to atmospheric temperature and pressure. Adding this to the kinetic energy of the paintball gives you most of the energy out. Then you just have 12 grams of liquid CO2 at some temperature and pressure inside the cartridge, which is just another chart lookup to find its enthalpy value. This of course is assuming complete heat transfer to the CO2 throughout the whole process.

I wouldn't know what to do with an entropy table but I'll keep my eyes and ears open.

Also an automag is what I want to bolt my solid copper pipe dream heat exchanger to.
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Old 04-23-2014, 09:52 PM   #1764 (permalink)
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I wouldn't know what to do with an entropy table but I'll keep my eyes and ears open.
Mine has density, vapor quality and enthalpy too, so you can use it for everything, but the entropy lines show you how a lossless system would move and how it deviates from the other curves.

It at least shows you why we haven't accidentally discovered or simply calculated a highly efficient configuration.

Experiments of any result are highly valuable.
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Old 04-23-2014, 09:56 PM   #1765 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by eddielives75 View Post
I mentioned the idea of using a heater around the CO2 source about 60 pages ago. I even got a pair of electric gloves so I could take out the heating elements and incorporate them into the gun, haven't done it yet though :-/ Also, if we are looking to get more volume out of the valve why haven't anybody chimed in on the Gargoyle? If we aren't gonna use a valve spring then you can take out the valve insert on the RTR valve and have loads of room
Not sure it will matter in the most common VSC setup because the sail still needs to be in front of the port in the side of the valve that the air comes in from. Great stuff guys. Still away but trying to not fall to far behind
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Since this thread started with boobs what are we supposed to derail it with?
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Stock class = 12grams and a stick feed. End discussion.
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Old 04-23-2014, 10:06 PM   #1766 (permalink)
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^please take a moment to notice how far back the port in the side of a VSC phantom is. it's way the **** back.... nowhere near the valve chamber (pressure in a phantom valve body *always* enters through the back, via a .200" diameter hole, regardless of which phantom valve body it is)

just wanted to make sure that was clear. CCI valve design is fairly good. though not as good as having a magic nipple and preventing any liquid being fired off... but better than most. Grey ghost has much more chamber volume and the pressure also enters from the rear, so it's a tad better than CCI (hence why most people see higher efficiency numbers off a ghost compared to a phantom, both in VSC).

cool factoid, grey ghost valve body drops right onto a Retro, if you ever wanted to compare the two on the same platform. course you'd be powering the valve via the side port, not the frame transfer port... guess which one is more efficient.

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Old 04-23-2014, 10:33 PM   #1767 (permalink)
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furthermore, my now slightly intoxicated sentiments for the day: I think the real purpose of this thread is just to annoy me and RNS so much that we are forced to make better valves as soon as possible. at least that's how I feel. all the crazy talk in this thread is driving me bonkers... thermodynamics calculations, installing electrical heaters in our guns, more scientific mumbo jumbo and endless jargons... kill me now. I will have to make some valve parts immediately as well, and deliver various testing results which surpass most expectations (and possibly meet mine)

edit: also I will counter with some thermodynamics sciencing of my own: if you want to transfer more heat to the valve somehow without moving parts, liquid systems or ELECTRIC systems, just install a bunch of heat pipes inside the gun to channel ambient thermal energy from the aluminum grip frame and other large aluminum portions. or to the 12 gram or whatever. heat pipes. they rock. i guess you can't transfer to the cartridge since there is no adequate thermal interface which would have a reasonable contact with a removable cylinder... that's just the way it is. air is a ****ty conductor, and even metal on metal contact is quite restrictive, I've had years and years of practical hobby and industry experience in thermal interfaces and that's just how it is. (edit: heatpipes are a terrible and useless idea. whatever)

speaking of which, now that I'm on an educated and experienced technical rant: metal conductivity for those who were interested. copper is something like 50% more conductive than aluminum but it has much LESS thermal capacity... thermal capacity rocks, btw. it's how much thermal energy can be stored in the material, and aluminum is actually the BEST for ambient thermal energy supply. comparatively, steel is TEN times less conductive than aluminum, and stainless is three times worse than that... 30 times less conductive than aluminum. or maybe it was compared to copper. I'd double check that if I cared but the figures are quite big.

when it comes to thermal conductivity between metals: it sucks. unless you use a thermal interface material, like thermal paste or liquid metal compound. not effective in this case, unless you wanted to try the heatpipes thing, but I don't see how it would actually do anything productive. not to mention, heat pipes are only as good as their fill... the fluid inside a heatpipe needs to be selected for the correct temperature "jump" to work optimally.

In conclusion, this post is utterly pointless I'm afraid. but I typed it anyways and I wont even bother deleting it this time

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Old 04-23-2014, 10:56 PM   #1768 (permalink)
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ugh, in further conclusion: I refuse to post again in this thread unless I'm posting results of improved nelson valve parts and testing. literally ban me if I post again for the sake of posting.
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Old 04-23-2014, 10:57 PM   #1769 (permalink)
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I think the real purpose of this thread is just to annoy me and RNS so much that we are forced to make better valves as soon as possible.
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Old 04-23-2014, 11:44 PM   #1770 (permalink)
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Apoc you have talked plenty. It would be great to see what a superior individual as yourself can come up with.

Lurker we have already established that volume in front of the sail does not matter because that is not all that's feeding the shot. If that were the case we would not have needed holes to get air to the pt ports faster.
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