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Old 04-23-2013, 12:51 PM   #21 (permalink)
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big jim... if you are a really good CAD user you can generate a TIN from a 3d drawing (lines drawn between points on the X,Y,Z axis) which a surface area. If you have multiple TIN's you can generate the volume they enclose. The first is all you need for this application.

And the question RE what is the allowable error is pretty significant. Can you guestimate your area based on rectangular/circular approximations seeing as we are working with a relatively small object (smaller than a bread box) which may have an area of no more than a couple square feet (a 12" barrel has a surface area of roughly 0.38 sf ... but is also a relatively easy shape to compute). Would the need for differential calc be more necessary for larger objects with volumes that are larger than a bread box or for a multipiece bath with volumes that would approximate gallons of bath displacement?

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Old 04-23-2013, 06:08 PM   #22 (permalink)
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ALSO, in anodizing HOW accurate do you need to be in determining surface area to power supply??? Is it 5% or something of that nature???
It doesn't even have to be +/-10%. It helps to know what to expect, and the more consistent you run your setup, the faster you will turn out good ano layers and good dye results.

Besides knowing the current density required by the part, you consider the power your setup is capable of. If you know the area, you can play with time and current to stay within a small setup.

Also, the better you know the area, the better you know the current density, which affects pore size and dye take-up. If you are trying to match parts in multiple runs, large variations in current densities can mess with your dye (especially when you use cheap dyes, )

Many surface features can make large changes in surface area. Things like fins, ripper bodies, fish bone cockers, knurling, and threading will remove material but increase surface area. You will observe that none of these features are smooth or continuous along the body. Once you look at the different features, you get an idea of the increase in area you get over a calculation with simple geometry (like a cylinder and add 50% for threads).

I have been off on guessing area by probably 40% (high) and finished early (voltage went high). I thought I had lost anode contact. The layer was actually very nice, and the dye color was off from my other parts, but only on certain dye colors. It could have been the particular alloy, but there's another variable for you.

On old parts, you won't have 3D files available. On newer ones, I would expect those as being treated as intellectual property.

Calculate your first few parts in pieces. Add the pieces up for each part and group the parts by ano run. Save the info. When you do more parts you can use similarities to guess a time. Just be careful how much similarity you assume.
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
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But that is immaterial as most companies now use 3 dimensional programs and she is absolutely correct in that the 3D programs will give the surface area.
Jim I showed my lady this.... IT MADE HER DAY!

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It doesn't even have to be +/-10%. It helps to know what to expect, and the more consistent you run your setup, the faster you will turn out good ano layers and good dye results.

Besides knowing the current density required by the part, you consider the power your setup is capable of. If you know the area, you can play with time and current to stay within a small setup.

Also, the better you know the area, the better you know the current density, which affects pore size and dye take-up. If you are trying to match parts in multiple runs, large variations in current densities can mess with your dye (especially when you use cheap dyes, )

Many surface features can make large changes in surface area. Things like fins, ripper bodies, fish bone cockers, knurling, and threading will remove material but increase surface area. You will observe that none of these features are smooth or continuous along the body. Once you look at the different features, you get an idea of the increase in area you get over a calculation with simple geometry (like a cylinder and add 50% for threads).

I have been off on guessing area by probably 40% (high) and finished early (voltage went high). I thought I had lost anode contact. The layer was actually very nice, and the dye color was off from my other parts, but only on certain dye colors. It could have been the particular alloy, but there's another variable for you.

On old parts, you won't have 3D files available. On newer ones, I would expect those as being treated as intellectual property.

Calculate your first few parts in pieces. Add the pieces up for each part and group the parts by ano run. Save the info. When you do more parts you can use similarities to guess a time. Just be careful how much similarity you assume.
Spider, THANK YOU... I want to do this right. I will go to Anodizing of Mesa next week and check out there operation. They do big industrial BUT I feel my brain will be fed with the right stuff. The more I read on this the more is seems that exactness is crucial... You are basically operating a small chem plants possibly in your kitchen/home. So for me Safety/Quality in paramount. I dont want to frustrate myself with making an expensive(possibly hazardous) uneducated mistake.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:15 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:41 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Jim I showed my lady this.... IT MADE HER DAY!



Spider, THANK YOU... I want to do this right. I will go to Anodizing of Mesa next week and check out there operation. They do big industrial BUT I feel my brain will be fed with the right stuff. The more I read on this the more is seems that exactness is crucial... You are basically operating a small chem plants possibly in your kitchen/home. So for me Safety/Quality in paramount. I dont want to frustrate myself with making an expensive(possibly hazardous) uneducated mistake.
What's frustrating is that you can get lucky with a small tub of one third battery acid, two thirds water, and a car battery charger and get a nice anno coat, then make a run with a "highly improved" line and have really bad results.
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:46 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codythinman View Post
Jim I showed my lady this.... IT MADE HER DAY!



Spider, THANK YOU... I want to do this right. I will go to Anodizing of Mesa next week and check out there operation. They do big industrial BUT I feel my brain will be fed with the right stuff. The more I read on this the more is seems that exactness is crucial... You are basically operating a small chem plants possibly in your kitchen/home. So for me Safety/Quality in paramount. I dont want to frustrate myself with making an expensive(possibly hazardous) uneducated mistake.
Please dont anodize in your kitchen/living room/bed room/bathroom.

sulfuric acid and aluminum sulfate are no joke and working with those chemicals around where your food is cooked or where you live is a dangerous idea, the fumes are hazardous as well, it is best to do it somewhere well ventilated with a concrete floor, garages are great, basements are ok, sheds are another option especially for people that live in milder climates.

As you said you are setting up a small chemical plant, checking ph levels and adjusting chemicals is something that needs to be done so its not a one and done situation with the baths.

If you are planning on running with this you will need to know how to get the specific gravity of your baths, especially your ano bath, to get the concentration of chemical in the bath by titration, hydrometer reading, or precisely weighing a portion of the bath, this is needed to determine whether you need to decant the bath or add more chemicals to a particular bath.

How you are planning to deal with the hazardous waste water is another step to think about. A well maintained setup will last a long time if properly cared for but it isnt difficult to contaminate a bath and ruin it. These are not chemicals that can just be dumped down the drain.

I dont mean to scare you, its not crazy difficult, I compare it to maintaining a warm pool once you are up and running but if not maintained the chemicals are not good for you or the environment.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:59 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Actually, the bath itself isn't too bad, being ~10%-15% sulfuric acid. Considering the amount of 90% sulfuric drain cleaner that goes down the drain, the bath portion is weak.

The same is true for lye. Incidentally, follow the same "acid to water" strategy for caustics; add concentrated lye slowly to the water.

They both will burn you or your clothes if left to sit.

Dissolved aluminum is not good for you to ingest directly, but there is a lot of it in the environment from all of our other activities. Your local water treatment facility usually determines the best route for light wastes. Industrial scale process is a whole different set of regulations.
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Old 04-24-2013, 05:30 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I cant disagree with you about the diluted acid in the bath, but normally I store my supplies by my baths, I also usually measure my chemicals around my equipment as well.

Also in a high traffic area such as a kitchen or living room there is usually more people around, many of whom will not know how these chemicals should be handled. A leaky anodizing bath has a tendency to rot wood, such as the subfloor under the carpet, hardwood, tile, linoleum,the kick-board of cabinets, the molding, sheet-rock doesnt like to get wet either. Wood surfaces should be coated with an acid resistant paint/epoxy based concrete paint if the anodizing baths are setup in a wood structure. Also as you said, do not get the acid on your skin, do not ingest, and I have posted my states regulations on the amount of particulates that can legally be in the air.

All states have different regulations, my state is particularly stringent. They do not want any dumping of these chemicals down the drains at all. Having worked with the Newark Waste Treatment plant I know they do not appreciate these chemicals coming in without a permit, that station being a combined sewer meaning they just dumps the non industrial sewage directly into the water system when it rains because they cant handle the extra flow through.

My state dep considers sulfuric acid a carcinogen
http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1761.pdf

It also considers aluminum sulfate to be a health hazard
http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/0068.pdf

Also the nickle based sealers used is considered carcinogenic by the NTP and IARC


It is only my opinion but these are not things I want in my kitchen and the hazards shouldn't be brushed off as minor anyone getting into this should understand the hazards.

Also cyanide is used in pesticides, toilet bowl cleaner, acetone, and other household chemicals. Mixing fumes of sulfuric acid and cyanide has been used in gas chambers. Its not a likely event but it is a deadly mistake.
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Old 04-24-2013, 06:50 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I guess I never considered the kitchen a real alternative. Even if you live alone, it's a big mess aside from the hazards. I just use distilled water for sealer. You do have to watch the stuff you get in the kits.
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:16 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I do mine in a well ventilated area. my acid tanks/lye/sealer tanks are in a shed next to my house I do all my dying in the basement.
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