semi-auto phantom - Page 2

Clearush · 05-09-2008, 09:18 AM

well even with the rainmaker you hit a topend somewhere around 15-16 before reliability issues set in. And the Rainmaker is not a pure nelson valve either.

Mayvik · 05-09-2008, 02:45 PM

AT-85?

Marauder_Pilot · 05-09-2008, 04:05 PM

Beat me to it. AT guns are essentially autococking Nelsons.

Robertsr · 05-09-2008, 05:02 PM

Yeah, but what is their F/A speed. It was pretty slow on both of mine. There were several folks on my team that shot faster than the AT's in full auto.

pizzaluvr · 05-09-2008, 06:13 PM

Yeah AT's only shoot 13 or 10 in full auto.

pizzadude · 05-09-2008, 07:35 PM

I tried to hook up a solenoid (then pair of solenoids) to my nelson pump - it really didn't work well (when it did finally) and on the whole, I'd say I invested much time and money learning 'how not to' techniques...

Imho if it were refined, it would still just be a quirky novelty, but nothing more.

All that said - I wish you best of luck and hope you have loads of fun doing it!

Tohri · 05-10-2008, 05:48 PM

Tried an autococking Traccer a while back, And it was one of those 'Works, Kinda' Designs. eventually, it self-destructed, and I sold off any of the 'Good' parts.

Today, I'm thinking of re-awakening the concept, But with a few hedges against design failure. (The whole 'learning the Donuts of design' thing is possibly the best expenditure of time and money one can ask for)

Design concept is thus: make a Third 'nelson with chopped frame in M-14 stock (I love them because they are cheap, look good, and are easy as pie to adapt to nelson clones) body, mount the beefy ram W/QEVs to the stock, Run another top tube Springfeed/12 gram changer, Tap the Valve's body for the LPR, run the Cocker 4way off the trigger directly, and instead of a Seartripper 'pin', use an adjustable grub screw. That way, The autotriggering point can be set reliably and adjustably.

The reason the previous prototypes didn't work was that the AT point was off, and caused Horrendous blowback and terminally low velocities. That, and I was still a Noob, and the fastenings/brackets were badly made.

The whole point of this would be to make a light and easy to handle 'Squallicane'. I love pistols, lever actions, and rifles, but could never use a pump to save my life. But a semi-auto rifle with good 12 gram efficiency and a comfy stock sounds like a dream come true.

Marauder_Pilot · 05-10-2008, 10:03 PM

The problem with a Nelson is that it doesn't lend itself well to semi-auto conversions because of how stiff the cocking action is.

Heh. 'Stiff cocking.'

If you want an efficient pistol, a well-tuned Squall can get up into 30 shots or so...and Sheridans > Nelsons.

(I'm a Sheridan fan. Nelsons, while still perfectly good, just feel so...unfufilling to me.)

Tohri · 05-10-2008, 11:46 PM

Never said I wanted an efficient pistol. Already got a few, two are Sheridan based, And one's a TAG-8.

Let us not forget Colin Thompson, And the grey ghost. Nelsons can be plenty efficient. but a carter, ghost, Squall, or any other hand tuned gun is way out of most people's price ranges.

I had no problem getting the damn thing to cock back. The problems arose from the fact the gun had to be Converted. Nellies have almost No meat on the receiver to bolt to. The powertubes have a tendancy to snap, Unless you're using a Traccer style Tru Flow valve.
But more than that, their trigger pull is Super Short. And if the trigger is depressed, the gun will autotrigger if the hammer comes forewards too soon. So if you're going to run it closed bolt, and recock on the backend of the trigger pull, you need to add Slack to the trigger pull: So the trigger resets out of the way of the sear, before the Forewards stroke of the Ram begins. Otherwise, you encounter reliability issues.

Autotriggering the gun is a more simple solution, obviously, But now you have a bit of a delay between the trigger press and ball fired, As well as the whole assembly smacking back and forth.

Not to say there isn't a way to do it, and do it well (I'll post my Auto-Trrifle When I'm done, just had another design idea tonight) But it's diffacult. That,a nd the phantom, while a perfectly nice pump, just isn't an ideal Semi conversion starting point for a number of reasons.

Kyote · 05-11-2008, 10:13 PM

I like the grub screw idea, had something similar, lets see if it works in CAD!

05-09-2008, 09:18 AM	#11 (permalink)
Clearush MCB Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: HTown, TX Posts: 1,069	well even with the rainmaker you hit a topend somewhere around 15-16 before reliability issues set in. And the Rainmaker is not a pure nelson valve either. __________________ Carter's Commando Texas division The White Board Comic My SCP Feedback Ebay Feedback MCB Feedback

05-09-2008, 05:02 PM	#14 (permalink)
Robertsr Ultimate Battle Monkey Z Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Waynesboro, VA Posts: 2,913	Yeah, but what is their F/A speed. It was pretty slow on both of mine. There were several folks on my team that shot faster than the AT's in full auto. __________________ Geriatrically Assured Destruction

05-11-2008, 10:13 PM	#20 (permalink)
Kyote Rec Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 50	I like the grub screw idea, had something similar, lets see if it works in CAD! __________________ Purveyor of the strange, odd, old, and unusual. I buy cheap junk and sell High Quality Used Equipment TASO Boredrop-Sniper II or 2-Hushray II-Splatmaster-PMI Boxer-68 Special-Trracer and more!

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05-09-2008, 02:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mayvik MCB Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Denver Posts: 1,453	AT-85?

05-09-2008, 07:35 PM	#16 (permalink)
pizzadude Active Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Redditch, Worcestershire, England Posts: 186	I tried to hook up a solenoid (then pair of solenoids) to my nelson pump - it really didn't work well (when it did finally) and on the whole, I'd say I invested much time and money learning 'how not to' techniques... Imho if it were refined, it would still just be a quirky novelty, but nothing more. All that said - I wish you best of luck and hope you have loads of fun doing it!

05-10-2008, 05:48 PM	#17 (permalink)
Tohri Active Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 350	Tried an autococking Traccer a while back, And it was one of those 'Works, Kinda' Designs. eventually, it self-destructed, and I sold off any of the 'Good' parts. Today, I'm thinking of re-awakening the concept, But with a few hedges against design failure. (The whole 'learning the Donuts of design' thing is possibly the best expenditure of time and money one can ask for) Design concept is thus: make a Third 'nelson with chopped frame in M-14 stock (I love them because they are cheap, look good, and are easy as pie to adapt to nelson clones) body, mount the beefy ram W/QEVs to the stock, Run another top tube Springfeed/12 gram changer, Tap the Valve's body for the LPR, run the Cocker 4way off the trigger directly, and instead of a Seartripper 'pin', use an adjustable grub screw. That way, The autotriggering point can be set reliably and adjustably. The reason the previous prototypes didn't work was that the AT point was off, and caused Horrendous blowback and terminally low velocities. That, and I was still a Noob, and the fastenings/brackets were badly made. The whole point of this would be to make a light and easy to handle 'Squallicane'. I love pistols, lever actions, and rifles, but could never use a pump to save my life. But a semi-auto rifle with good 12 gram efficiency and a comfy stock sounds like a dream come true.

05-10-2008, 11:46 PM	#19 (permalink)
Tohri Active Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 350	Never said I wanted an efficient pistol. Already got a few, two are Sheridan based, And one's a TAG-8. Let us not forget Colin Thompson, And the grey ghost. Nelsons can be plenty efficient. but a carter, ghost, Squall, or any other hand tuned gun is way out of most people's price ranges. I had no problem getting the damn thing to cock back. The problems arose from the fact the gun had to be Converted. Nellies have almost No meat on the receiver to bolt to. The powertubes have a tendancy to snap, Unless you're using a Traccer style Tru Flow valve. But more than that, their trigger pull is Super Short. And if the trigger is depressed, the gun will autotrigger if the hammer comes forewards too soon. So if you're going to run it closed bolt, and recock on the backend of the trigger pull, you need to add Slack to the trigger pull: So the trigger resets out of the way of the sear, before the Forewards stroke of the Ram begins. Otherwise, you encounter reliability issues. Autotriggering the gun is a more simple solution, obviously, But now you have a bit of a delay between the trigger press and ball fired, As well as the whole assembly smacking back and forth. Not to say there isn't a way to do it, and do it well (I'll post my Auto-Trrifle When I'm done, just had another design idea tonight) But it's diffacult. That,a nd the phantom, while a perfectly nice pump, just isn't an ideal Semi conversion starting point for a number of reasons.