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Old 12-01-2008, 06:08 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Non pnumatic, mechanical Full Auto "AKA the holy Grail" as HP Lovecraft put it, boils down to one thing. The feed system. That in turn to two things, the phyical propertes of the paintball and ability to match the cyclic(sp) rate of the gun. Its not a hard to solve problem, just hard to solve for the way we play. The solution that I speak of is casings and/or clips, but that means the gun will be limited paint, and suffer the same weakness' as the old SMG.
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:11 PM   #12 (permalink)
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That's an idea to try.

Drive spring is red, as before. Locking cams are blue- they could be ball bearings. Outer hammer shell is black, inner part is grey, 98 endcap is light blue, bumper is orange, and bumper spring is green. The end of the hammer (light grey) is threaded to allow all the parts to be put together- but a potential weak point.

As the hammer comes back, the green spring holds the inner part (inertial slider) against its forward end. At some point, the drive spring would slow and stop the hammer before returning it forward, but I have no idea how to time that. Instead of randomly throwing cuts on the receiver sidewalls, this uses a brute-force solution- a rubber bumper on the endcap. When the hammer hits that, the inner part continues rearward by inertia, moving the locking cams out. The drive spring decompresses, and the green spring overcomes the inner part's inertia, returning it forward. The cams retract and the hammer goes forward again.

The clamshell design of the 98 would allow the locking cam cuts to be made easier, but the design makes cocking the thing a little hard. With that in mind, I think the A-5 would be better for this. The endcap bumper might not be a good idea- that's why Tippmanns use some form of buffer, but trying to tune the valve and drive spring for the cam lock point might be like herding cats.
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:20 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Ahh...You forget about the ATS guns. Mechanical fully auto. If you link the feed system into the operating system of the gun, you won't have to worry about it since it feed at the same rate the gun is cycling. Maybe modify a Warp feed to be run by the operation of the gun?

Another idea to slow the cyclic rate down would to have either a pneumatic ram connected to the bolt so on forward movement it traps air in the ram or simplify it by replacing the pneumatic ram with a simple spring. Following me? Both could be adjusted by a screw, the pneumatic ram being the volume of air in the ram and the spring style pretensioning the spring.
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:26 PM   #14 (permalink)
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You could also make the hammer really heavy, but that would demand a harder valve spring. Since the newer Tippmanns have a larger valve area, you might just get away with not using liquid, but it would be really inefficient. You could always make a new breechblock for a 68 Special with a Q or warp and find the biggest CO2 tank you're comfortable carrying backbottle.
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:49 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by USMC-Scout/Sniper View Post
Ahh...You forget about the ATS guns. Mechanical fully auto. If you link the feed system into the operating system of the gun, you won't have to worry about it since it feed at the same rate the gun is cycling. Maybe modify a Warp feed to be run by the operation of the gun?

Another idea to slow the cyclic rate down would to have either a pneumatic ram connected to the bolt so on forward movement it traps air in the ram or simplify it by replacing the pneumatic ram with a simple spring. Following me? Both could be adjusted by a screw, the pneumatic ram being the volume of air in the ram and the spring style pretensioning the spring.
I'm pretty sure the ATS is pneumatic. It's also nelson based, which might contribute to the low rof.

I guess don't really understand the reasoning against using pneumatics. Electronics I can understand, but it seems like one would be making a relatively simple thing very difficult by not using pneumatics. Must be a "because I can" thing.

Personally I would try mounting a small cylinder to the side of the gun, and connect it to the bolt. It wouldn't be connected to any air source. The port that would normally control the "forward stroke" would have a QEV with some kind of flow restrictor or pressure relief valve. The bolt could move forward freely, but would have to fight the pressure build up in the cylinder on the back stroke. The froward stroke would be unaffected, because the air will have vented out by the the end of the back stroke.

Basically it would be almost like a one way spring. I don't see why it wouldn't work, but maybe I'm overlooking something.

Last edited by Mespllingesnogud; 12-01-2008 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:28 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mespllingesnogud View Post
I'm pretty sure the ATS is pneumatic. It's also nelson based, which might contribute to the low rof.

I guess don't really understand the reasoning against using pneumatics. Electronics I can understand, but it seems like one would be making a relatively simple thing very difficult by not using pneumatics. Must be a "because I can" thing.

Personally I would try mounting a small cylinder to the side of the gun, and connect it to the bolt. It wouldn't be connected to any air source. The port that would normally control the "forward stroke" would have a QEV with some kind of flow restrictor or pressure relief valve. The bolt could move forward freely, but would have to fight the pressure build up in the cylinder on the back stroke. The froward stroke would be unaffected, because the air will have vented out by the the end of the back stroke.

Basically it would be almost like a one way spring. I don't see why it wouldn't work, but maybe I'm overlooking something.
I posted the same idea here a few months back, and even asked an engineer friend about it. Turns out a qev isn't anough, you would also need a 'flow restrictor' such as the RT adjuster on an A5. This would allow you to set and adjust the cycle rate.

For those who don't understand this concept, think "screen door hydraulics"
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:07 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I posted the same idea here a few months back, and even asked an engineer friend about it. Turns out a qev isn't anough, you would also need a 'flow restrictor' such as the RT adjuster on an A5. This would allow you to set and adjust the cycle rate.

For those who don't understand this concept, think "screen door hydraulics"
Based on that, I bet you could using off the shelf parts.

Something like this would work:



Or you could just find the pressure of the cylinder when the ram is retracted with the port blocked, and set a pressure relief valve to that pressure. It would pop open right when the bolt reaches it's rear most position. That might end up being a little to much resistance, but you could probably set it to pop about halfway, although you would get some funky feeling recoil.

Last edited by Mespllingesnogud; 12-01-2008 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I guess don't really understand the reasoning against using pneumatics.
Certaintly it can be done with pneumatics. The "Hellbore" setup is an easy way to use off-the-shelf components to many any gun a full-auto.

But the whole point is that its so absurdly easy to make a blowback into a real full-auto. It just cycles too fast. People have tried to think up mechanical ways to slow it down.

And you are correct. Now that we have electros, the argument is totally moot. Its like Fermats Last Theorem. Its nice to figure out the problem, even if nobody really cared.

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The froward stroke would be unaffected, because the air will have vented out by the the end of the back stroke.
This is the approach that the Tippmann F/A used. The tough part, with blowbacks, is that forward stroke alone is only 1/100th of a second long. Any attempt to shorten that, and you also affect its ability to recock.
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:45 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
I guess don't really understand the reasoning against using pneumatics.
For the record, ATS guns are pnumatic nelsons.
Like Hp has stated its just that its sooooo easy to make any blowback cycle F/A, and thus people have been attempting to get one to fire paint now since someone acdedently(or purposly) swaped there SMG trigger into there 68 special way back when.
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Old 12-02-2008, 01:14 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HP_Lovecraft View Post
Certaintly it can be done with pneumatics. The "Hellbore" setup is an easy way to use off-the-shelf components to many any gun a full-auto.

But the whole point is that its so absurdly easy to make a blowback into a real full-auto. It just cycles too fast. People have tried to think up mechanical ways to slow it down.

And you are correct. Now that we have electros, the argument is totally moot. Its like Fermats Last Theorem. Its nice to figure out the problem, even if nobody really cared.



This is the approach that the Tippmann F/A used. The tough part, with blowbacks, is that forward stroke alone is only 1/100th of a second long. Any attempt to shorten that, and you also affect its ability to recock.
I definitely understand the desire to find that kind of solution to that kind of problem; I've had more than my fair share. I'm a little confused though. When it comes to "mechanical" full auto, where is the line drawn between pneumatic and mechanical? Where does the "hydraulic" system of the F/A fall?

Never heard of the Hellbore system before. Did a little searching, and there is definitely some interesting stuff there. For some reason, that kind of thing absolutely fascinates me.
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