Lightening up a Phantom Hammer

wowomatic · 11-13-2009, 11:52 AM

I've been bitten by the mod bug and I want a lighter hammer for my phantom, and I figured I could do it myself. I'm pretty sure the hammer is steel with nickle plating, but I'm not sure. The tools at my disposal are a vice, files, sandpaper, a Black&Decker 18v drill and a 4.7v cordless Dremel. I also have all the safety gear I'll need; goggles, gloves, face masks and such.

Should I attempt this and if so how should I go about it? What bits/attachments would I need to drill/cut the hammer?

I was thinking that the easiest way would be just drill some holes in the hammer, but I want to go for a fluted design like the LAPCO hammers.

Also, why isn't anyone selling these commercially, especially Mike (of CCI)?

Phantom Power · 11-13-2009, 01:03 PM

With those tools you've listed it'll be an ugly job I think. The hammer is very hard steel. And the reason Mike hasn't done it is that he's got a perfect balance setup between efficiency and reliability with the parts he's got in there now. It's not like he just picked some springs and an arbitrary hammer design and threw it in there. The stock Phantom internals are as they are because that's a proven setup that works.

Not to discourage you from modding at all. I'd just pick up a spare hammer and good around on that. You'll also need to get all the nickel plating off if you're fluting it since it'll flake where your cuts are made and end up all over the inside of your Phantom. Then you'll have a bare steel hammer, so you'll need to keep it oiled well to prevent rust. It might also be a good idea to blue it before oiling to give it additional protection.

wowomatic · 11-13-2009, 01:36 PM

do you think it would work commercially?

jhyan · 11-13-2009, 02:58 PM

Have Blue from Air Soldier Products has been working on a fluted hammer for the phantom. Might want to hit him up and see where he is at with it.

Shocker s/f · 11-13-2009, 04:15 PM

Wouldn't you have to use a much heavier main spring then to get to the desired FPS ?

808raoul · 11-13-2009, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shocker s/f

Wouldn't you have to use a much heavier main spring then to get to the desired FPS ?

I was thinking this also.

jhyan · 11-13-2009, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shocker s/f

Wouldn't you have to use a much heavier main spring then to get to the desired FPS ?

Yes. The point of a lightened hammer is that you get to use a heavier main spring, which stops the hammer from bouncing off the power tube. This bouncing leads to small bit of lost co2, reducing efficiency.

Gogged_Gurl · 11-13-2009, 04:39 PM

the hammer needs to be a specific weight,matched to the right power tube ID,valve spring,main spring and cupseal design,so there is a bit more science than just drilling,if you want to experiment you will need to dig up alot more info.good luck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shocker s/f

Wouldn't you have to use a much heavier main spring then to get to the desired FPS ?

if you drop a fluted hammer in with no supporting mods then yes, you would need a heavy spring. wich negates the benefits of the hammer. but correctly set up it works great and you use a much lighter mainspring.

Phantom Power · 11-13-2009, 05:31 PM

A lighter hammer does necessitate a harder main spring if the input pressure and the valve spring remain untouched. The only way you get to use a lighter spring is if the forces on the other side of the valve are decreased. Less force on less mass is less energy to do work. If the other side of the valve has the same pressure from gas and spring, it's ability to do work is unchanged. So it wins, and the valve stays closed. A lighter hammer must have a correspondingly harder spring to be able to do the same work of balancing out the forces on the other side of the valve.

Jhyan is correct that this will stop the bouncing of the hammer off the tube and increase efficiency. But as you harden the mainspring more, you increase the amount of force that is pushing against the valve all the time, even when the gun is uncocked. You can only take it so far. You'll also be making the gun harder to pump as you increase the main spring. Things to think about. Enjoy the tinkering, just keep in mind that there's always a trade-off to be made.

alpha434 · 11-13-2009, 05:44 PM

The hammer needs to be carrying X amount of energy when it strikes the valve.

Lightening it means that the hammer stores less energy will be stored in the hammer when it strikes the valve at a given speed. To correct for a loss of energy in this way, you often have to increase the spring rate, so that the hammer has more speed.

BUT. . . Here's where you're going in the right direction, in my opinion.

A fluted hammer is able to accelerate more readily because it has to displace less air as it travels down the tube. Compare a standard hammer to a parachute in this way...

I would try it...

11-13-2009, 04:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
Shocker s/f Active Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Amsterdam Ny	Wouldn't you have to use a much heavier main spring then to get to the desired FPS ? __________________

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11-13-2009, 01:03 PM	#2 (permalink)
Phantom Power Ghost with the most Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Pender Island, BC	With those tools you've listed it'll be an ugly job I think. The hammer is very hard steel. And the reason Mike hasn't done it is that he's got a perfect balance setup between efficiency and reliability with the parts he's got in there now. It's not like he just picked some springs and an arbitrary hammer design and threw it in there. The stock Phantom internals are as they are because that's a proven setup that works. Not to discourage you from modding at all. I'd just pick up a spare hammer and good around on that. You'll also need to get all the nickel plating off if you're fluting it since it'll flake where your cuts are made and end up all over the inside of your Phantom. Then you'll have a bare steel hammer, so you'll need to keep it oiled well to prevent rust. It might also be a good idea to blue it before oiling to give it additional protection.

11-13-2009, 02:58 PM	#4 (permalink)
jhyan Cheffer Join Date: Apr 2006	Have Blue from Air Soldier Products has been working on a fluted hammer for the phantom. Might want to hit him up and see where he is at with it.

11-13-2009, 05:31 PM	#9 (permalink)
Phantom Power Ghost with the most Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Pender Island, BC	A lighter hammer does necessitate a harder main spring if the input pressure and the valve spring remain untouched. The only way you get to use a lighter spring is if the forces on the other side of the valve are decreased. Less force on less mass is less energy to do work. If the other side of the valve has the same pressure from gas and spring, it's ability to do work is unchanged. So it wins, and the valve stays closed. A lighter hammer must have a correspondingly harder spring to be able to do the same work of balancing out the forces on the other side of the valve. Jhyan is correct that this will stop the bouncing of the hammer off the tube and increase efficiency. But as you harden the mainspring more, you increase the amount of force that is pushing against the valve all the time, even when the gun is uncocked. You can only take it so far. You'll also be making the gun harder to pump as you increase the main spring. Things to think about. Enjoy the tinkering, just keep in mind that there's always a trade-off to be made.

11-13-2009, 05:44 PM	#10 (permalink)
alpha434 If you insist... Join Date: May 2008	The hammer needs to be carrying X amount of energy when it strikes the valve. Lightening it means that the hammer stores less energy will be stored in the hammer when it strikes the valve at a given speed. To correct for a loss of energy in this way, you often have to increase the spring rate, so that the hammer has more speed. BUT. . . Here's where you're going in the right direction, in my opinion. A fluted hammer is able to accelerate more readily because it has to displace less air as it travels down the tube. Compare a standard hammer to a parachute in this way... I would try it...