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Old 06-06-2010, 09:49 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by o-baller View Post
If you want people to believe you, do a chronoed test. I would love to see how much of a difference it makes. I think everyone wants their barrel to shoot better. But personal experience cant possibly be called accuracy. Lots of people can hit targets 100 feet away with one shot. But a test would prove your point conclusively. I want to believe you, trust me on that.
That's the rub o baller, that was the problem with the punkworks stuff, they used such a tiny statistical sample that their conclusions were mere guesswork. Should I pretend paintballs are identical, paintball to paintball, when I know they're not????

For that theoretical test, you would have to fire cases and cases one ball at a time, through multiple markers throughout the different times of the year. You should give each barrel the treatment and determine whether it is then noticeably more accurate than stock versions of it's type with any unsmoothied barrel. You should try each marker for a good long time to account for inconsistencies of paint.

Hi, my name is AgentSmith and in the last 15 of my 24 years of pistols only paintball, I HAVE BEEN RUNNING YOUR CHRONOED TEST. I have averaged over 30 days of testing a year since 03 alone!

If you think that this is all some elaborate trick that I've cooked up with data included, then I'd like to know what my purpose might be?

The truth is, that in the spririt of MCB and out of boredom with my broken leg, I've decided to tell something that I had no intention of telling anyone, much less try to prove to them.
I worked my brain off on this stuff and get my rewards from threads like this at my home field:
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Not from the approval or lack thereof of faceless strangers.

Once I decided to put this down on paper, though, I wanted my real message to be what the reader is left with. Not untrue statements. Then each person can choose to believe what I say or not, that is how I prefer it.

I don't have the data on paper that will satisfy you, because I never intended to discuss this in the first place. If you're ever near Hell Survivors in michigan let me know and I'll do a barrel for you to try yourself.

When you say 'Lots of people can hit targets 100 feet away with one shot', you make me wonder. Lots of people can routinely hit goggle sized targets with 1 shot at 100'?
I'd be interested to know what some of those lots of people think of my theories. I'll bet they're shooting by instinct, the way I do on purpose.

Siress. Please define 'waviness'. Are you suggesting now that the hone does not even out the surface longitudinally down the barrel??? Please don't be suggesting yet another... Is mispreconception a word? If that is what you're suggesting just stop it.
I will restrain judgement on Kitten-lickin, pending further data.


Rob
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Old 06-06-2010, 10:01 PM   #72 (permalink)
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What is the proper way to use a flex hone? Do you spin it in the barrel as you pull it through or do you run it straight in and out a number of times?
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Old 06-06-2010, 10:21 PM   #73 (permalink)
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It's spun as it's pulled back and forth through the barrel.


I simply insert the hone slightly into the muzzle of a barrel to start after putting 5 or 6 drops of honing oil into the barrel(which I hold in my hand).
With a plug-in variable drill I do it at half speed, with a 2 speed cordless screwdriver I put it on the slower speed and hold the trigger in. You don't want to go TOO fast, like the full speed of a plug-in, because it can heat the aluminum and foul the hone.

Then try to smoothly run it til half of the honing head sticks out the back and bring it back til it sticks the same amount out the muzzle. I do 10-15 strokes(down and back being one stroke) for an unused good quality barrel. Then I swab it and if I see anything in the finish I don't like, looking at it against the light, I do a few more at a time, swab and look, until I'm satisfied.
If I have to go more than 25 strokes because of prior damage in the barrel, I check it with a micrometer as I swab it at that point, to make sure I'm not measurably opening the bore. Shouldn't be but some barrels are softer than others. You would get old trying to remove the anodizing from inside a paintball barrel with an 800LA, probably around 100 strokes at least I bet, I have never tried it. For paint overspray in sheridans I used a rougher hone.

My newer one, bought in 07:



For freak kits, I have done them together with inserts in them, with the TPX I take out the breech and hone the barrel and breech together as a unit.


Rob
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Last edited by agentSmith; 06-06-2010 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:56 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agentSmith View Post
It's spun as it's pulled back and forth through the barrel.


I simply insert the hone slightly into the muzzle of a barrel to start after putting 5 or 6 drops of honing oil into the barrel(which I hold in my hand).
With a plug-in variable drill I do it at half speed, with a 2 speed cordless screwdriver I put it on the slower speed and hold the trigger in. You don't want to go TOO fast, like the full speed of a plug-in, because it can heat the aluminum and foul the hone.

Then try to smoothly run it til half of the honing head sticks out the back and bring it back til it sticks the same amount out the muzzle. I do 10-15 strokes(down and back being one stroke) for an unused good quality barrel. Then I swab it and if I see anything in the finish I don't like, looking at it against the light, I do a few more at a time, swab and look, until I'm satisfied.
If I have to go more than 25 strokes because of prior damage in the barrel, I check it with a micrometer as I swab it at that point, to make sure I'm not measurably opening the bore. Shouldn't be but some barrels are softer than others. You would get old trying to remove the anodizing from inside a paintball barrel with an 800LA, probably around 100 strokes at least I bet, I have never tried it. For paint overspray in sheridans I used a rougher hone.

My newer one, bought in 07:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/gallery/.../Flexhone3.jpg


For freak kits, I have done them together with inserts in them, with the TPX I take out the breech and hone the barrel and breech together as a unit.


Rob
How much do hone kits cost?
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:58 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by o-baller View Post
How much do these cost?
Around $40 plus shipping per hone. there may be a wait time for the 800LA, there was when I bought that new one, the AOs they had in stock, but that was back in 07. I think the 'rear bore' hones fit autocockers bodies, but I'm not sure.

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Old 06-07-2010, 01:12 AM   #76 (permalink)
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I picked up the term waviness from your own link that corrected what I had previously considered a part of the measurement for surface finish, the part that I find to be the flaw of a flex hone; how much of one I just don't know.
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Old 06-07-2010, 08:18 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Given the importance of that dimension for automotive use in cylinders, a problem in this area would make the flexhone unsuitable. This work is exactly what the flexhone was developed for and is mostly used for today. The crosshatch pattern depth is controlled by the speed at which you pull the hone and the grit level, while it levels out inconsistencies that even fixed honing like roller burnishing will leave in the longitudinal axis.





Quote:
As received, rigid honed by factory rework section. "W" photo at 1000x.
Cross-hatch has majority of cut in one direction. Smeared, torn, jagged and folded metal on surface.
Smeared metal loosely attached to surface. Very peaky profile of finish. 40 to 50u" (1.02 to 1.27um) finish. Cylinder #B-1

Quote:
After Flex-Hone. 180 grit silicon carbide, "Y" photo at 1000x. Uniform crosss-hatch pattern.
Clean open appearance with smeared, folded and torn metal removed. Excellent semiplateaued profile.
Small dust particles visible on surface in "Y" photo. 20 to 25U" (.51 to .63 um) finish. Cylinder #B-1.
Bear in mind that these are far rougher than the surface acheived with the LA. You can see the shallowness of the crosshatch in the bottom pic, it simply lowers the average peak to valley height while smoothing out everything.


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Old 06-07-2010, 08:45 AM   #78 (permalink)
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AgentSmith, the Punkworks tests did actually use an appropriate sample size, based on a T-distribution... I had that 'discussion' with cockerpunk a while back. I don't much care for their analysis of the results, though.

O baller, this is a discussion on finish, not accuracy. The finish is better. That has been shown to be true. The roughness is as small as possible with methods costing less than thousands in overhead tooling costs. The waviness is all that remains to be truly studied, and from the looks of it, the flex hone adopts the waviness of whatever prior finishing method was used, considering the slow pace of material removal.

If we were to want an accuracy test for a honed barrel, cockerpunk should have taken Smith up on his offer, instead of ... well, being cockerpunk.
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Old 06-07-2010, 09:20 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Well in my opinion accuracy is limited at the good end by the finish, so I connect the two things. Attempts to use 'donut' shooting, which I believe to give the best results will be sabotaged by poor finish in the barrel.

The reason I posted those pics was really the surface graphs under the photos, which clearly show 'waviness' REDUCED from the fixed hone when the flexhone was applied. Look especially at how low the left side of the first graph was to start.

The flexhone reduces waviness overall from most barrels, it does not increase it.

There's obviously a problem with cockerpunk's statistical model, or he wouldn't have ran up against the BS factor of experienced people saying 'that doesn't match reality'. He either used the wrong equation or inputted bad data to it or he should have gotten the right answer.
It reminds me of one of my favorite little parables.

Three guys go into a hotel and they tell the hotel manager they want to share a room.
The hotel manager says the room is $90 and they each give him $30 and go up to their room.
After they leave the hotel manager realizes that the room was only $80, so he gives the bellboy 10 singles to return to the renters.
The bellboy doesn't want to make change and they didn't tip him anyway so he gives each guy back $3 to make 9 and keeps a dollar for himself, using up the $10.
So each guy paid 30 and got back 3, meaning they paid $27 for the room. 3 times 27 is 81 and the bellboy kept $1, making 82. Where did the other $8 go?


My point is that just because a position is logically consistent and can't be argued with, DOESN'T mean it's not total BS. Mathematical models must be reconciled with real life or they are worthless. The models cockerpunk created, however mathematically pretty especially in the case of undershots, do not reflect reality and so they are worthless. His barrel fit tests did not use a barrel honed with the extra fine and so simply do not apply to our discussion about the 800LA at all. Remember, in the days when undershots were developed and most popular many barrels were honed with the 800AO. Hell Survivors has a 20 year old hone set with half the berries gone behind the counter to this day.


EDIT: bear in mind that in the case I'm talking about, paintball barrels, we are not 'creating' a bore. I would not recommend turning a .684 barrel into a .691 with a flexhone. Fortunately there is ABSOLUTELY no need to. Just get a .689. Even in the case of taking a fixed pistol barrel on say, a sheridan that far, the accuracy is still enough to knock one's socks off, so it doesn't affect our endeavor of getting an accurate barrel, IMO.

Rob
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Last edited by agentSmith; 06-07-2010 at 10:00 AM.
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