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Old 07-03-2010, 01:54 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Since we're dabbling in the realms of pure hypothesis this far into the thread, I'd surmise that while multiple shots wouldn't increase the force of impact, there are things in the head that swell. I assume that each time they're hit, they swell a little more, and multiple hits could put more pressure on the brain due to swelling that would cause symptoms until the swelling subsides.

You can trust me on my medical opinions. I watch House MD.
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Old 07-03-2010, 02:07 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I took one to the temple in the first game I played (yay shop goggles), and my vision blacked out for a few seconds, but I remained concious and other than a headache for a short while, had no other ill effects.

I think you're more likely to give yourself a "whiplash" style concussion based on your reactive movement (aka slosh your brain around in your brain can and slap it into one side or the other) than the ball itself is going to cause damage unless it's fired very hot. Even at 20 feet, you're not getting 280fps if that was your chrono reading, and you're not shooting someone directly in the skull, there are a few millimeters of tissue and bone between the impact and the brain.
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Old 07-03-2010, 05:04 PM   #13 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=oorah23;1377000]I'm not sure about the overall cumulative effect. I would assume that even multiple shots would not multiply the force QUOTE]

I have to agree I think multiple shots increase the chance, only becuase of the shotgun method of multiple rounds finally hitting the right spot, I dont belive its a brain injury persay, just the ball happens to hit the exposed nerve or nerve junction, that cuases people to black out (sort of like the the nerve that runs into the jaw, take a look at the human lower jaw and you can see the hole where a major nerve runs.....this is the glass jaw for boxers)
and as everyone is differnt the effects will be slightly differnt, the guy I shot and dropped (and make no bones he dropped like he was felled by an axe) was up and around in a few minutes, the other guy was dropped by a .62 so it was travelling faster (320-340fps) but not close or point blank, we had to carry this guy out, drama queen? I dont, but interestingly both guys where side on and crossing open ground at speed, so maybe the exertion plays a role.

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Old 07-04-2010, 02:33 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Getting shot in the temple is a while different ball game. The temple portion of the skull is a pressure point. If enough force is applied to that area blackouts and possibly death can occur. Now hitting a moving target compounds the original equation because you would have to consider the speed of the paintball and the speed at which the persons head is moving. Think of it like a head on car crash where both objects speed toward each other and then.........BOOM
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:45 AM   #15 (permalink)
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A few days ago a member posed a question as to whether he suffered a concussion from taking a hit to the noggin with a few paint ball. Many on here offered advice and shared stories of some of their battle wounds and it got me to thinking. I asked a friend of mine who's an engineer to help me with the numbers. Now before I go any farther here Ill post my disclaimer. The data here is open to debate on many levels. I tried to do a very simple comparison of things and there are gaps in my theory....on to the scientific goodies..
I posed the question of how hard does a paintball impact an object. I told him to use the numbers of a paintball traveling at 280 ft/sec a distance of 20 ft weighing 3.2 grams. And that a concussion can be caused to a human being if the head experiences anywhere from 50-75 g's. Using this he determined the following. If you use a brain size of 1400 grams and an acceleration threshold of 75 g's, you come out with concussion occuring at 3.36 x 10^6 Newtons of force.
A paint ball at 280 ft/sec and 3.2 grams comes out to 4.5 x 10^6 Newtons. Turns out 280 ft/sec is a heck of a speed. So it looks on the surface that a paint ball should pretty easily be able to cause a concussion. However, its a little fuzzier than that.

The paintball does not transfer all it's force into the brain. It only transmits a percentage of it. If we were talking a steel ball bearing traveling at the same speeds, obviously the damage would be much greater, however with a paintball being so mushy you would be doing well to achieve 50% or less. Because the paintball is actually either striking the skull or the mask which is going to absorb most of if not all the force of impact before it transfers to the brain. The only way to determine exactly how hard that paintball is going to hit would be to fire it into a scale that can record its results, thereby telling you how many pounds of force the paintball transfered into the scale (which would be standing in for the head).
Now of course theres room for changes to this theory. Like increasing the velocity or decreasing the distance from which the shot is taken. Or if taking a shot to the temple changes the force needed. However even with those changes it still seems highly unlikely that a shot from a field legal paintball gun will strike the head at a significant enough force to cause a concussion. My buddy theorized that a paintball may need to be moving in excess of 560 ft/sec to cause a brain injury but thats just a theory. This was all just done in fun to satisfy my curiosity. Im sure there are folks out there who have confirmed concussions ( meaning went to the doctor and had a CT scan done) from playing paint ball. But I could not find a refernce on the net that said 100% that yes I was shot in the head with a paintball and it concussed me.
Ok not mean disrespectful but where and how did you come up with 4.5 x 10^6 Newtons? Force = Mass x Acceleration. Mass must be in Kilograms, and Acceleration must be in Meters per second squared. 285 fps = 86.868 m/s^2. 3.2 grams = .0032 kilograms. Together they equal 2.78x10^-1 Newtons. So how you got 4.5x10^6 is way beyond me because 4.5 million newtons would be equal to a car slamming into someone.

Also out of curiosity where did you get those figures for a concussion? It takes only 30 g (g-force) to cause brain damage, around 10gs or less to cause a concussion. 50-75gs would easily cause massive brain damage if not death if that was applied to the skull. Im sorry but I have no idea where you got your numbers and as a mathematical person I would like to see some evidence for your argument.

resources on human brain and physics behind a concussion
Acceleration-Deceleration Sport-Related Concussion: The Gravity of It All
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:50 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I caught a pretty close shot to the temple once, dazed me pretty bad, just sat down on the ground in the middle of a game. Part of the impact force probably also changes whether or not the ball breaks, how much it deforms when it hits you and so forth.
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by foldadoom View Post
the guy I shot and dropped (and make no bones he dropped like he was felled by an axe) was up and around in a few minutes,
I have seen one like this. The guy was on the run and just augered into the ground.

I've had my ears ringing after catching several in the side of the head. I was reffing and ran right into a rope coming out of a near bunker.

You need to adjust the brain model. It's ~1400gms suspended inside of some larger mass (thank goodness). Personally, my skull and neck are er...substantial.
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:25 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I got shot in the head behind my ear one time, so hard I saw stars... AND I wear a full helmet... (jt flex 8).

I always recommend full helmets for young players... Just for a little added protection to their heads.
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:58 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluto View Post
Getting shot in the temple is a while different ball game. The temple portion of the skull is a pressure point. If enough force is applied to that area blackouts and possibly death can occur. Now hitting a moving target compounds the original equation because you would have to consider the speed of the paintball and the speed at which the persons head is moving. Think of it like a head on car crash where both objects speed toward each other and then.........BOOM
Ding!

I think a lot of people in this thread do not know the difference between concussions and pressure/nerve points.


Your original post has something lacking.

You took the velocity of a projectile and the mass of a projectile and came up with a force.

Someone please doublecheck the math.


Forget the irrelevant anecdotes -- check the math.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:26 PM   #20 (permalink)
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You probably also have to figure in how much force it takes to break a paintball. Because after that point the nature of the hit will change.

Compression Testing Thread - TechPB Forum

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...qbUxFVUE#gid=0
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