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Old 03-15-2011, 05:55 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by paintslinger16 View Post
You could make a standard template with all the most pertinent information and just plug in the answers and leave a notes section within each section.
This quote is exactly what I'm thinking...

A sheet you can fill in the blanks with. Now that I'm home, I'll start trying to put something together.
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:07 PM   #32 (permalink)
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we devoloped teh LSET test which uses a 13/3 and a nice pressure gauge to pretty damn accuractly extrapolate to any tank size effeiency. PM me i can find you the link. but everyone here is correct - you have to shoot paint. not only that, but just like what im gonna say about consistency, paint to barrel match can easily swing effienecy numbers by 10% or more.

as far as consistency, i have in one day, with mutliple backs but the same paint and gun gotten from +/- 15 fps to +/- 2 fps over 20 shots. so again, barrel and paint has HUGE effects here and it might be hard to get the gun performance out of that whole mess of signals.



mike does stock guns, which is the most sensable. but one wonders about the relivence of comparing stock to stock, when it is so easy to change and see massive improvments or losses.


i do like the idea for the most part though. me and bryce and the other PW guys have been talking about standardized test for guns and paint for quite some time. after all, we have test methods for accuracy, consistency, effienecy, and are working on a kick test as we speek. we also can use the high speed camera to look at the cycle. in terms of quantativily looking at the gun, that covers most of the bases. idk, its an idea we have been kicking around.

I actually agree with this, instead of testing stock markers with a stock barrel, a review barrel which is tested with a particular standard paint to produce consistent velocity, which would provide more accurate testing between different markers. the regulator should not be changed.
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:23 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I actually agree with this, instead of testing stock markers with a stock barrel, a review barrel which is tested with a particular standard paint to produce consistent velocity, which would provide more accurate testing between different markers. the regulator should not be changed.
See, I don't agree with this fully, and I stated earlier why, but I'll restate again.

If a gun (I'm thinking of my Dangerous Power Threshold when I talk about this) comes with a highly custom color, and custom milling that incorporates the barrel and the regulator, you're not going to change the barrel.

Next time at your local field, look at the number of stock barrels in use with custom guns.

Sure, it's easy enough to put on a different barrel, but the stock barrel will give you a great baseline that anyone should be able to replicate, plus if they own the gun, they own the stock barrel.

Like a car. Can I put better tires on it? Better suspension? Nitrox? Sure, but I want to know what it's going to do stock.
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:29 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
I actually agree with this, instead of testing stock markers with a stock barrel, a review barrel which is tested with a particular standard paint to produce consistent velocity, which would provide more accurate testing between different markers. the regulator should not be changed.
i wasn't really implying that but that is the other side of that coin. idk, i go back and forth. another point against that method is that paint is still and always will be a variable, even brands change with seasons, storage, age, bore ...

the main problem is that in paintball, turns out the paintball is pretty important. and reballs suck as far as actually representing paintballs.
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:30 PM   #35 (permalink)
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See, I don't agree with this fully, and I stated earlier why, but I'll restate again.

If a gun (I'm thinking of my Dangerous Power Threshold when I talk about this) comes with a highly custom color, and custom milling that incorporates the barrel and the regulator, you're not going to change the barrel.

Next time at your local field, look at the number of stock barrels in use with custom guns.

Sure, it's easy enough to put on a different barrel, but the stock barrel will give you a great baseline that anyone should be able to replicate, plus if they own the gun, they own the stock barrel.

Like a car. Can I put better tires on it? Better suspension? Nitrox? Sure, but I want to know what it's going to do stock.
Caveat being closed bolt markers. I had an amazing MQ Karni in a eyecatching red/gold pattern. Stock Kaner is .689, local paint needs .679 inserts. Only time the Karni had the stock barrel on was on the pegboard, pictures, and when it went in the mail. Otherwise it had my carbon barrel with a 679 insert. PB on the field is all about shooting folks, I save the looking good for off the field... Well, not me, but my guns.


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Old 03-15-2011, 06:30 PM   #36 (permalink)
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The idea is a scientific or repeatable procedure, or at least as close as we can.

Basically if I do something, cockerpunk or bryce should be able to repeat it, and the other way around. At least come as close as we possibly can.

That way if someone doesn't like the findings, they can try it.
Problem here.. when I've travelled across the country for events, I've had markers change velocity 30 or 40 fps.. same paint, same marker, etc.

You're going to have a heck of a time standardizing atmospheric pressure and humidity.

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Originally Posted by Painthappy View Post
If a gun (I'm thinking of my Dangerous Power Threshold when I talk about this) comes with a highly custom color, and custom milling that incorporates the barrel and the regulator, you're not going to change the barrel.
Maybe it's the contrarian in me.. but yeah, I would. DesertT1 expressed my thoughts exactly.

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Old 03-15-2011, 06:42 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Painthappy View Post
See, I don't agree with this fully, and I stated earlier why, but I'll restate again.

If a gun (I'm thinking of my Dangerous Power Threshold when I talk about this) comes with a highly custom color, and custom milling that incorporates the barrel and the regulator, you're not going to change the barrel.

Next time at your local field, look at the number of stock barrels in use with custom guns.

Sure, it's easy enough to put on a different barrel, but the stock barrel will give you a great baseline that anyone should be able to replicate, plus if they own the gun, they own the stock barrel.

Like a car. Can I put better tires on it? Better suspension? Nitrox? Sure, but I want to know what it's going to do stock.
Fair enough in that regard, I agree that with a lot of those markers which matching barrels, not going to get changed out. I guess I just use closed bolt markers too often and I really avoid overboring for high performance setups.
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:44 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I see it as being simple. If someone is going to review a gun using an aftermarket barrel, they can take the time to do it right and incorporate the tests using the stock barrel too.
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:54 PM   #39 (permalink)
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another issue with the fixing everything and using the exact same stuff on everything is that different types of guns use the barrel differently. like in our testing we found that popit valves tend to have much larger effects on bore size, whereas spools seemed to have more an effect on control bore length. different guns have much different "ideals" and so if you pick something that favors a short but HP power pulse vs a longer but lower pressure power pulse, you will be changing the results.

so your going to get interaction effects, not just main effects.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:12 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Good idea.

To date, my reviews have tended toward a narrative, well divided into sections.

See these, for example:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/m...5D-review.html
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/m...r-harness.html

I believe I could add some standardized data to my reviews.

What I'm concerned with is "measure-bators" turning reviews into little more than a product brochure.

"Not everything measurable is important and not everything important is measurable."
the funny thing is, i never watch or read reviews for things like kick, consistency, or anything i could measure. i watch peoples reviews to get a feel for the gun, its quirks and whatnot. maybe this is a byproduct of both knowing quite a lot and making good predictions based on published information (like how a gun or valve works and thus its consistency or efficiency traits), and knowing that details outside of the guns function vastly effect things that are often attributed to guns.

either way, call it a review or a spec sheet, what carter is talking about is standardized test methods. im all in favor of it, especially efficiency and consistency. they are so easy to measure, and there is so much "my gun shoots +/- 1 all day" bull **** out there.

now, if thats a review or a spec sheet i dont really care.

for the record my single favorite part of mikes reviews is the 3-10 shots over the chrono with a super gun. yeah, not standard or even a good test, certainly one i would not evaluate a guns performance on, but AWESOME for shutting up the "egos shoot +/- 1 day" folks.
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