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Old 04-16-2011, 09:22 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cjottawa View Post
"Junk" - scopes, stocks, grips, rails - hanging off a paintball gun does nothing.
I know many players who would disagree with you. Kind of the point isn't it, to help players find a gun with just the stuff on it that they want, but none of the stuff they don't.

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ALL paintball markers fire imperfect gelatin spheres at less than 300fps.
Except First Strike firing guns.

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The ONLY relevant criteria for classifying guns:
- rate of fire
- amount of paint carried on gun and method (direct feed vs. stock class)
- recocking mechanism (pump vs automatic recocking)
Heh, I consider most of that irrelevant. It's about style preference. The type of player who would like a Bob Long MTAC is a very different player to one who would like a Bob Long Marq, even though all the technical specifications (rate of fire, firing mode, paint delivery method, etc) are identical between the two. That's the issue really. Angel slaps a few rails on their normal electro and suddenly it's lumped into the same category as a mag fed M16 lookalike with a hidden air tank. Or the new Trracer shows up with a few rails on it and some players scream "Oh no! Milsim!", even though it's not SIMulating any MILitary gun that I know of. That's silly.

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NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.
Actually EVERYTHING matters to someone, this is to help those people find what they want.
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Old 04-17-2011, 02:09 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
..since the gun doesn't care what field it's on.
I gave a couple guns that seem to care very much and will stop working on a field it doesn't like.
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Old 04-17-2011, 06:54 AM   #13 (permalink)
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But VMs don't generally have wood on them....
No, VMs are for clubbin bears.
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Old 04-17-2011, 06:57 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I have 2 kinds of markers.....

The ones that work and the ones that dont.....
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We don't lower the bar so that everyone can get an A. That's a foolish notion.
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Old 04-17-2011, 07:26 AM   #15 (permalink)
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No, VMs are for clubbin bears.
No, VMs were used by bears to club mammoths.
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Old 04-17-2011, 08:33 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Detachment Bravo View Post
Space Dildo: Comes in many colors. Has lots of pretty lights and electronics. Multiple speed settings. Needs lots of lube.

Mechanical Lover: Characterized by all mechanical operation. Lots of hoses, valves, regulators, etc. Also needs lots of lube. Careful, they bite.

Sloppy Seconds: Any double stack blow back derivative. If it ain't broke, send it off to China and make gazillions of them.

Manual Labor: All you need is your hand. Just pump.

Old Wood: If it can give you splinters or can club a moose to death.
Hey I resent that statement, I have guns from almost every class, several from sloppy seconds, wait that did not sound good.
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Old 04-17-2011, 09:27 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cjottawa View Post
If you're SELLING guns, sure. I expect your classifications would help people decide what they want for accessories.

They should also know, however:

Running a field, reffing and organizing games should be using the criteria I outlined (ROF, paint storage, recocking mechanism) to match players, just as our field does.

Newbs shooting rental Tippmanns don't get paired with people shooting high-zoot electro-pneumatic guns.
I think Fubarius put a good amount of thought into this classification system and I would have to agree with what he came up with. CJ, he stated that the classification is for the markers not players. For review, here is an excerpt from his first post.

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Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
So the old system of saying this paintball gun is a "speedball gun", and that one is a "woodsball gun" is really quite useless since the gun doesn't care what field it's on. So lets try for a more exact system that actually describes the functions and features on the gun instead of trying to force a stereotype.
I think you can absolutely pair up new players, that have rental Tippmanns, with players that have high-end electros. What it comes down to is maturity level. You get these idiots that come out and want to spray people with paint in essentially a bully-like manner, of course you won't want to pair them up with new players. I'm sure it is safe to say that this kind of player can be spotted a mile away and at most fields the regulars can recognize this and take steps to ensure that this person plays with more experienced players. Some of my favorite games were where I took a new guy "under my wing" and had them follow me for the game to learn how to play. I think I enjoy more where I am teaching players how to be a good participant and not fall into the category that is d-bag land.

As far as ROF is concerned, it is a moot point. All fields have a capped ROFand should someone be going above this, only the ref and offending party are to blame for this happening. Besides with the profits that most fields make could be classified as marginal, what field gives out pumps as a rental now compaired to a standard mechanical semi-auto? It is simple economics to keep it simple when owning rental equipment. Keep it minimal: marker, hopper and a bottle.

Honestly it just comes down to the owner(s) of the field and refs ensuring the safety for everyone playing. Be it PPE or making sure that players are getting paired into groups that, regardless of their markers or skill level, will have a good time. We all know what every make of marker is capable of as well as how our soft goods will perform, these are variables that we can trust. I feel that we all know that everyone is human and this is the only variable that cannot be relied on.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:52 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I have to agree with others, the capacities and capabilities of a maker is what matters when defining a category to put them in, not their looks.

If I have a maker that fires at 13bbs, has a hopper which holds about 200 rounds, and has an air source to fire a decent number of pods, then what does it matter if it is hot pink with puppy dogs on the side, or looks vaguely like an AK-47?


I see there being 2 or 3 core classes, a number of subclasses, and then cosmetic types. Something along the lines of:

1. Modern Marker Format: Bulk air supply, autococking, bulk paint supply.

1a. 'Tourney' Class: Reliable high rates of sustained fire: force fed paint, and a reliable anti-chop method.
1b. 'Recreational' Class: Markers that fit the modern format, but lack the added features that set the Tourney class apart. (It might be more accurate to split this into a low and high subclass to better account for differences between a bone stock Tippmann 98 custom vs something like a vibe/sp1 with a force feed loader.)


2. Manual Marker Format: Marker is reset manually for firing.
2a. Full Bulk Pump: Large hopper, large air source, you just have to pump for each shot.
2b. Small Bulk Pump: Little brother to 2a, such as 50rd hopper and 13ci HPA.
2c. Small Pump/Stock Class: Likely a tube feed, probably a 12g CO2 system.

3. 'Special' Formats: Basically the 'other' class for stuff that doesn't really fit the above two.
3a. Limited Paint/Magfed: semi/auto rate of fire, but far more limited paint than is found on Class 1 format.
3b. Compact: Pistols and the like, which are far smaller and compact than more traditional setups.
3c. ???

Styles:
i: Standard Style: aka, space gun. These are markers designed around the functionality of paintball. They can be artistic and styled, or bare and minimalistic.
ii: Sim: Styled to look similar to a real world firearm. This may be a weak sim to give a vague impression of an MP5 or AK47, or scaled to be as faithful of reproductions as possible.

The problem I have with the styles is what do you put a marker with paintball functional 'milsim' features? Like the SP1 with useful rails but not styled off any given real world firearm? (Yes, they can be useful. Flashlights for CQB, red dots for actual aiming, spotting scopes for woods play. You don't use the high magnification scope to aim, you use it to help figure out if you're looking at someone's heel sticking out from behind cover, or just a rock.) Or the Tiberius T8 pistol? There are some aspects that are 'milsim', but it is fairly practical in design for what the marker is trying to achieve.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix01 View Post
As far as ROF is concerned, it is a moot point. All fields have a capped ROFand should someone be going above this, only the ref and offending party are to blame for this happening. Besides with the profits that most fields make could be classified as marginal, what field gives out pumps as a rental now compaired to a standard mechanical semi-auto? It is simple economics to keep it simple when owning rental equipment. Keep it minimal: marker, hopper and a bottle.
There is a very big difference between the rate of fire I can get with a stock Tippmann with a gravity feed and a modern tournament style marker with a good force feed. Sure, we can get two or three shots off at the same rate, but after that the Tippmann is going to fall far behind. There is no way I can shoot steady ropes in a reliable manner with the Tippmann, either I'll eventually miss a feed or chop. It all goes back to good and fair team setups of course. I'll happily play against some of the speed ball guys with my far lower end gear, but I've been playing paintball for years. First time playing? Not a chance.

Last edited by Luckless; 04-17-2011 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 04-17-2011, 02:13 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Old 04-17-2011, 04:43 PM   #20 (permalink)
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So many paintball racists. Can't we all just get along?
I...started out with a re-hash of the "I Have A Dream" speech...but did not think that would go over too well...>.>

But...basically...why do we feel the need to classify markers? In such a small world...why do we need to alienate our brothers and sisters? Especially over something so simple as the color of their marker or whether or not it has a picatinny rail?
Can we not judge a player soley upon their actions on the field? Classify a marker soley by it's compliance to a field of play?[i.e., the Phantom is a gun compliant with NPPL pump regulations whereas the Pump-Mag is not]

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