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Old 05-11-2011, 12:36 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Graf Orlock View Post
when was that article written and when was camille stollen? and where is HUGO?!
this is something i'd like to know

are the pics posted in the second post of Camille?
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Old 05-11-2011, 12:55 AM   #22 (permalink)
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So, wait:

Again, I feel like the kid who's just (unwittingly) learned a dirty word and is now using it freely at a high society dinner, so bear with me, but . . .

Is it actually rumored that THE Budd Orr may have had something to do with the theft of this marker from THE Glenn Palmer?

I mean, this should be a book, or something. Was there really such bad blood between them, and at such a vicious level?

But why steal a marker that is so old? I mean, leaving aside sentimental and historical value (again, bear with me), this isn't a current prototype. In other words, we aren't talking corporate espionage.

It's a piece of history. And stealing it from a competitor doesn't modify the market. It may upset the person, but for what? Each of them are successful, no? Would someone truly be that low?

And if they were enemies (as presumably they could only be for such a knavish act), how would the thief come to know of a 'secret' compartment, unless someone close to Mr. Palmer divulged the information?

Sheesh, it's just crazy, and now I'm completely intrigued.

But surely such a secret could not be kept so perfectly. Which means if Orr did this (the world gone upside down), then surely someone close to HIM would know of it, and perhaps be inclined to tell of it.

Perhaps some anonymous party close to Palmer who would know the theft would shift suspicion to Orr (again, head spinning implications)?

What a story!

And how did I miss it all these years?
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Old 05-11-2011, 01:01 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Menace View Post
But why steal a marker that is so old? I mean, leaving aside sentimental and historical value (again, bear with me), this isn't a current prototype. In other words, we aren't talking corporate espionage.
it was stolen while it was new. edit: i'm a tard

budd orr went on to claim autocockers as the first working semiautos.

from what i understand. i should have asked glenn during the campout too.

Last edited by heinous; 05-11-2011 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 05-11-2011, 01:18 AM   #24 (permalink)
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What date was it stolen, I thought it had been stolen long after working autocockers had hit the market.


When comparing the two Palmers blazers are really fair more practical than your standard WGP Autocockers, WGP should have taken some ideas from them and refined their markers a bit more like moving the LPR, Ram, and 4-way off that nasty front block for one thing.
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Old 05-11-2011, 01:32 AM   #25 (permalink)
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you are right, sounds like it was stolen around 01, look what i found For those who missed it - Glenn Palmer's Response to Jeff Orr - PbNation

Quote:
: Jeff Orr April 16, 2001
Vice President
Worr Games Products Inc.
13517 Alondra Blvd
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
(562) 407-2898

RE: CO2 Mail, *** magazine, May 2001; For the record.

Hello Jeff,
Just to keep this from being a novel, I'll get right to the point. In short, your letter to *** was completely out of line, since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
It appears that your father is not being completely honest with you and that is quite unfortunate. Steve Novak's statement in the referenced article is quite accurate and your rebuttal is based entirely on misinformation propagated by your father and associates to preserve a false image. While I certainly didn't invent pneumatic automation in general, I am certainly the one that figured out how to put it to use effectively in/on a paintball gun. Bud didn't even get a chance to actually see how it worked for over a year after I had my semi auto going and in use. The fellow that he was getting his info from here in Nor Cal, the one you describe as an "engineer", was a local field operator here in Sacramento that was looking at the guns that I had in operation here. The only engineering that he did was in reverse and then got Bud involved in trying to do the conversion. That turkey (Jamel) even had the audacity to call me and tell me what they (him and Bud) were doing. They were going to "put you out of business" by offering the conversion at half the price that I did. That was at least good for a laugh as I told him to go for it. Keep in mind that this was well over a year since I built my gun and shortly after building a couple others. So you see, everything that Bud was doing with pneumatic automation was a direct result of my development work. I even explained the process to him personally and showed him exactly how the system could be adapted to the Sniper at an Easter seals benefit game in Northern Calif., exactly 11 years ago this week. (April 1990)
You also ***-u-me that Matt Brown (AGS) was into the process of developing a semi before I was; which is a big mistake. Matt's partner at the time, Dave Craig showed the prototype of what they were working on at a tournament in New York in June of 1988 and I was already well into the process. Enough so that I offered to help them finish their design in exchange for some sources on components. I was not at all interested in production of such equipment at the time, but was determined to have a semi for myself so as not to aggravate an old shoulder injury farther. Another important fact is that their attempt at making a semi with pneumatic automation never really made it to market. After I got mine running and called Dave with the info that they would need to finish theirs, including a regulator design that would fit inside the gun, AGS had decided to not market the gun because it was too complicated. In my deal with Dave Craig, I agreed to not build more of them for a period of time and in that I am a man of my word, I upheld that agreement even though AGS had chosen not to market the equipment. I was quite happy to have the only functional, gravity fed semi on the field. By the way, the first semi autos utilized the same system that we use now. You mentioned a "sentinel" valve as being used on the AGS version. Wrong again. The valve that they were trying to get to work was a standard Clippard pneumatics 4-way valve, model FV-4. Quite similar to the 4-way valves used today, except that it is spring return operation. That's the main reason the gun wouldn't fire effectively; there was no means to time the gun to set the cycles of operation effectively. In my design, I modified the 4-way valve that I got from AGS to remove the spring return and latter chose to use a Humphrey valve model 4PPX on my rifle conversions and later in pistol setups as well. The Humphrey 4PPX valve is still used to this day on the semi auto rifles that we build and is the design that bud copied exactly in the 4-way valves that were made for the 'cocker until the 2000 model. He copied exactly, the internal workings of the Humphrey valve to the point that parts from either are completely interchangeable. The only difference between the valves was the positions of the hose barbs. As you know, a couple of my older guns have been stolen recently during trips to southern cal. but I still have a couple around that predate anything built by WGP by quite some time. Some of those even have sliding triggers
That provided easier access to control the 4-way over a pivoting trigger. Coincidentally, I have to wonder why the AutoCocker bears such a close resemblance in the layout and even the internals of some of the components.

Now, you folks can play all the games that you want with image and reputation but you best get your facts straight before you start trying to make yourselves look better at my expense. I will no longer let it slide as I have in years past. In fact, I know a way that we can settle this once and for all. How about we both (Bud and I) set for a polygraph (lie detector) exam. He can tell his story and I'll tell mine and we can let everyone see who is telling the truth? Come on Bud, let's get it on and get this over with.

Sincerely,

Glenn Palmer
Owner: Palmer's Pursuit Shop
Developer of the automation system used in the WGP Autococker.

cc: to every one that I know of.
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Old 05-11-2011, 01:40 AM   #26 (permalink)
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So, if we know who did it, why didnt Mr. Palmer press charges?....and correct/forgive me if Im wrong in speculation, but is it far off to guess that WGP/Bud Orr took Camille?
i already adressed this in post 4!
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Old 05-11-2011, 01:47 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Zoiks!

Well, that's mighty interesting now, isn't it?

So presumably, might this theft serve in a retroactive way to remove all evidence of some earlier automated design?

That now seems possible, in light of what's been said here.

So another marker besides Camille was stolen? And what were the earlier markers that Palmer was referring to?

Ach!!! This really is quite a lot to absorb on short notice.
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:06 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I've got to ask, was camille the first Hurc? And I'll ask/wonder/ponder where is hugo and why has it never been brought up like Camille has?
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:12 AM   #29 (permalink)
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if you read the first post (long story short) yes. camille was the original prototype hurricane...
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:48 AM   #30 (permalink)
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if you read the first post (long story short) yes. camille was the original prototype hurricane...
It was similar but had a different regulation system, pre-rock regulator if you will.

The only reason the autococker took off was because of the rock regulator. Now something to note, all of these guys talked(tippman, tom kaye, bud orr, and palmer) and helped in the development of each others guns. Glenn reported that he helped Kaye figure out how to solve the shoot down issues of automags and co2 but Tom had already made thousands of valves, so tom just pushed HP air instead. The above letter from glenn is in reference to something Jeff Orr said, not Bud.
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