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Old 05-25-2011, 11:23 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talfuchre View Post
ISo, by this definition, I could hook a pump handle up to any semi and, via blue tooth and software changes, force the marker to not be able to fire until I moved an unloaded, unsprung, very low friction pump handle .680 back and forth. THIS would be a pump?
Yes it would be a pump. If it has a pump and you need to move it, whatever it does, it's a pump. Again the basic definition of pump is very broad and independent of performance or operating mechanism.

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Originally Posted by Talfuchre View Post
At this point you are not 'recocking' the marker, not chambering a ball, or using the pump for anything meaningful other than as a temporary safety. Seems, to me, like this is not in the spirit of pump play at all.
"Spirit of pump" is a non-argument, there is no one spirit of pump. In fact it could be argued the original "spirit of pump" was to improve upon a marker to make it faster and more user friendly, so you're going down a tricky path there with the spirit argument. Also, there are a variety of mechanisms that can be considered safeties, but generally if the intent of the mechanism is not that of a safety, then it isn't a safety.

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Originally Posted by Talfuchre View Post
Plus, I would wager the ROF that this marker would achieve would be much higher and more stable than most pumps.

TF
It wouldn't be. The biggest destabilizer is the human arm and the need to move it back and forth quickly to fire the gun quickly. The .680 pump, net-zero assistance requirement actually nearly levels the playing field as far as ROF and stability.

You can test this yourself by cycling a lightly-sprung, smooth pump with and without the cocking rod/hammer pin engaged. You will notice that you can't achieve a significantly higher ROF without the cocking rod and the gun shakes around about the same.

Last edited by drg; 05-25-2011 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:11 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by P0E View Post
How does a chamber-only action warrant a handicap?

I can see if the stroke is significantly quicker, but wouldn't you do the same if everyone was shooting load/rest pumps and one had a similar advantage?

Internal function doesn't matter. Once the new phantom comes out I'm sure everyone will agree. This kind of 'assign a category to it' line of thinking limits paintball.
chamber only would make the pump stroke extra smooth. same goes for pneumatic assist. it makes a differences when you have an offset feedneck and the hopper's lopsided weight throws off your aim if you paid too much attention applying force to cock the gun.

it's also the lazy way out when you mod a spyder into a pump.
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:26 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by heinous View Post
chamber only would make the pump stroke extra smooth. same goes for pneumatic assist. it makes a differences when you have an offset feedneck and the hopper's lopsided weight throws off your aim if you paid too much attention applying force to cock the gun.

it's also the lazy way out when you mod a spyder into a pump.
Meh, I disagree. A pneumatic assist (a la SHO) has a clear and definite advantage so that's a non-argument. However, the advantage of a "smoother and lighter" stroke of a disconnected bolt is minimal at best when compared to a properly tuned sniper. I've shot a CCM gun, I've shot an mQ gun, and I've shot a stock Sniper. Sure, the stroke of the CCM was better than that of the Sniper, and the mQ even better than that, but the difference was so negligible I wouldn't hesitate to allow it an any game I ran, as long as it had a .68" stroke.

Yes, that goes for TF's Bluetooth gun as well.
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:47 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talfuchre View Post
So, by this definition, I could hook a pump handle up to any semi and, via blue tooth and software changes, force the marker to not be able to fire until I moved an unloaded, unsprung, very low friction pump handle .680 back and forth.

TF
Darn it, you stumbled upon my "simulated pump" concept I was going to introduce to the discussion. Heck, combine with a nice compact electro and you could have a gun where you slap on a pump module for pump play, slap on a bolt action module for First Strike use or if you feel like playing "sniper", or slap on a lever action module if you're feeling cowboy'ish. Each module consists of 2 switches and a wire to the board, or wireless connection (that's a good idea, might drive the cost up though). Board in "external cycle control" mode looks if first switch has been pushed and released and the second switch is held before allowing gun to fire.

Would be a hell of a lot of fun. Would it be "real" though? Nope, not at all.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:01 AM   #35 (permalink)
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if i could write the rules....

"a pump marker is a marker that has to be manually manipulated to load a ball with a stroke larger than the ball"

that would cover all ball sizes, and be an easy standard rule.
it would exclude PA and Mags
it would include MQ, spumps and ego's


the nppl says a pump must do both reload a ball and cock the hammer

psp just came out with a pump div... i want to read their rules/classification


when we host pump days, anythin that pumps is fine (mq, ego, pa, mag, spumps, etc)
when we go to pump tournies its nppl rules
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Old 05-26-2011, 02:39 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Ehh, the PMag stroke may be shorter than the diameter of the ball, but the actual throw of the pump arm is the same as any other. You still have to return the pump handle all the way forward or else it will interfere with the bolt.

I wouldn't allow anything that could fire before it was pumped. This would disallow most electronic markers without clever programming.
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:03 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical View Post
One action must be made to make the gun ready to fire, a second action must be made to make the gun fire. If the gun is assisted (i.e. pneumatically) or has a pump stroke less than .68 inches, then it must not have an auto trigger function.
This is my preferred definition of a pump marker. It includes everything, and makes the "inconvenient semi" PA markers illegal.

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Originally Posted by idkfa View Post
Ehh, the PMag stroke may be shorter than the diameter of the ball, but the actual throw of the pump arm is the same as any other. You still have to return the pump handle all the way forward or else it will interfere with the bolt.

I wouldn't allow anything that could fire before it was pumped. This would disallow most electronic markers without clever programming.
How about you must push the function button on the Xmag, before the next trigger pull will fire the marker?

This would meet the above definition. (Trust me, it is considerably more inconvenient than using a proper pump marker)

How about a PA marker that requires the pump to move at least .68", as Alpha434 suggested earlier?

How about using an analog proportioning valve (It tries to move away from the pump as you pump the marker, making the pump stroke nearly effortless)?

Time to run away from the fire I just tossed all those propane cylinders into... BLEVE's are fun to watch... at the appropriate distance

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Old 05-26-2011, 03:07 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tymcneer View Post
This is my preferred definition of a pump marker. It includes everything, and makes the "inconvenient semi" PA markers illegal.



How about you must push the function button on the Xmag, before the next trigger pull will fire the marker?

This would meet the above definition. (Trust me, it is considerably more inconvenient than using a proper pump marker)

How about a PA marker that requires the pump to move at least .68", as Alpha434 suggested earlier?

How about using an analog proportioning valve (It tries to move away from the pump as you pump the marker, making the pump stroke nearly effortless)?

Time to run away from the fire I just tossed all those propane cylinders into... BLEVE's are fun to watch... at the appropriate distance

Ty
I was referring to both a) having to move some form of action the length of a ball and b) the gun being incapable of firing until this is accomplished.

I have a problem with pumps that can be fired (even without a ball) before the user manipulates the action in some way.
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Old 05-27-2011, 08:12 AM   #39 (permalink)
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The whole "effortless stroke" thing is kind of a red herring anyway because most people run return springs of some kind. It's not really desirable to have a zero-effort pump stroke, you risk misloads. Some mechanical pumps without return springs will effectively have a zero-effort stroke through part of its stroke, and if it's already cocked it is a zero-effort stroke. A PA pump with a .68+ stroke is effectively the same as other solid-linkage divorced-valve pump strokes. Discriminating based on pump effort is not a road you want to travel down because you will have to specify a specific weight and weight curve, which is just not feasible.

Be wary of adding the "incapable of firing" rule because pure mechanical sheridan-base guns can be fired without fully closing the bolt and any one with a cocking rod can be fired without pumping.

Last edited by drg; 05-27-2011 at 08:20 AM.
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