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Old 03-25-2012, 02:59 AM   #121 (permalink)
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I know i have a lot of people looking at me wierd for the way I play but personally I love my setup. the 50 round hopper is just right for me and the 50cui holds lots of air and makes a great stock for rapid suppresive fire. I guess it's more of an assault pump class if you get my drift.....
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:42 AM   #122 (permalink)
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I just came across this thread. Being a long time stock-class proponent I figured I'd throw my two cents in...

Great topic, great research, and great read. However, I'd like to address an important point regarding stock-class that I believe hasn't been addressed. Everyone is getting all hung up on what is and what isn't considered stock-class equipment. Yes, I agree there does need to be a standard adopted, but stock-class play isn't just about the equipment. Stock-class play is first and foremost about the fun, challenge, sportsmanship and camaraderie that the spirit of the game itself was founded on. It's my contention that the limited paint/air configuration of stock-class equipment serves to reinforce these attributes, and maintain that spirit.

Consider the roots of paintball - I'm taking before 1992. Way back in 1983 Lionel Atwill (one of the guys who invented paintball) wrote a book called "The Official Survival Game Manual". In it he states that the game was simply created so a group of old friends could go act like kids and have some fun in the woods. Chapter one, titled "Playing For Fun", outlines the silliness that ensued when the 007s started popping. In his words "The game is play. The game is rooted in fun..." (page 142). In 1985, after reading about the fun, challenge and sportsmanship of their Nelspot-based play I was inspired to attend my first game. I bought my Nelspot about a month later.

The core group of guys that I play with all started playing in 1984/1985, and I think it's safe to say we understand first hand what the original spirit of the game is all about. We saw the advent of tournaments where the attitude and mentality of many paintball players went from playing for fun to playing to win. We also saw the introduction of multiple-shot-per-second guns that gave some players the ability to turn an elimination into an intentional, malicious assault which would often degrade a fun game into a fist fight. It didn't take long to see that the original spirit of the game as we knew it was gone.

It's no wonder why in 1992 some players tried to create a stock-class league. Seems like an obvious response to the competitive "do anything to win" mentality and malicious over-shooting that was spreading like a plague across the country. "Hey, let's make the game fun like it was back when it started." "How do we do that?" "Let's use the same equipment that the guys who invented the game did." Is anyone really surprised stock-class didn't catch on? After all, what gun is a 17 year old gonna blow his allowance on - the latest and greatest "cable shooter", or a 10 year old Splatmaster?

Fast forward to today. Not much has changed. We still see the cheating, the over-shooting, and fighting at many of the commercial fields. And we still have the little groups of like-minded players who have had it with all of that pathetic BS that ruins the enjoyment of paintball. "Spray and pray"? No thank you.

Now I've been running renegade stock-class games since 2003 without incident. Over the years I have found that stock-class play does reinforce the original spirit of the game far better than any other style of play. Of course, much of this has to do with the individual players themselves. Give a player who is committed to sportsmanship and fair play an electro or a PGP and it won't make a difference. However, taking out an opponent with a PGP requires far more skill, is far more challenging and is a lot more fun than using any electro. As it's a fraction of the price as well, we have to ask "so why not stock-class?"

You know, I have to say that calling stock-class, and stock-class players "elitist" or exclusionary is outright laughable. Over the past 10 years we've tried almost everything possible to include as many players as possible in our games, yet maintain a standardized set of rules that we know will keep the game fair, fun and cost effective for everyone. Just from a financial standpoint, having to pay hundreds upon hundreds of dollars to keep up with the latest and greatest equipment (not to mention multiple cases of paint) for a days worth of play with semis/electros/etc is far more "elitist" and exclusionary than the fraction of money needed for a day of stock-class play. That's like a guy driving a 2012 Ferrari calling the guy driving the 1974 VW Beetle an elitist because he wasn't invited to the vintage VW car show. "Hey rich guy, just buy/borrow an old bug and come to the show!" Some folks are just too cool to dig on old Vee-Dubs, but that doesn't make those who do elitist.

At our games we use "modified stock-class" rules, and have 3 simple criteria: any gun that is 1.) pump-action, 2.) horizontally fed and 3.) 12-gram powered. The pump-action, the horizontal feed and the 12-gram all serve to slow down the pace of the game for everyone. I'm against anything other than horizontal feed systems as that encourages auto-triggering. If everyone has to rock, cock, reload tubes and change out 12-grams then it not only "levels the playing field", but players are forced to rely on their own skills rather than on expensive technology, or bursts of paint which may induce multiple, unnecessary hits. All the complexities of operating a pump-action, horizontally fed and 12-gram powered gun is what makes stock-class play even more challenging - and some may even say more fun.

I'd like to add that in many of our past games, these 3 simple, yet somewhat flexible criteria have allowed folks who don't have factory SC set ups to modify their existing open-class pumps and join in the fun. After all, we all know that when it comes to paintball games "the more, the merrier".

Just like last year, we're hosting at least 2 stock-class games here in CT. They're open to anyone who has their own modified SC equipment. Feel free to contact me if you want to get on our email list, or have any questions about our games. Check the link in my sig line for more info about our upcoming Spring game in May.
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There's playing paintball with a stock-class gun, and then there's playing stock-class paintball. Big difference.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:56 PM   #123 (permalink)
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I remember when the SGPA rules came out in '92. And I remember thinking, even then, that some of the restrictions didn't make much sense for paintball. For example, limiting the feed system to a horizontal tube that runs parallel with the barrel. A horizontal feed was a good design for the Nelspot's original users - foresters and cattlemen - who needed to holster their markers, or store them in a glove compartment. But it was a bad design for paintballers, who quite rightly came up with the direct feed modification. Not so much because they wanted to increase their rate of fire, but because they wanted to maintain their sight picture when recocking.

Trees, a forester's target, are stationary. And cattle don't usually jump out of view. But opponents on a paintball field can move in the moment it takes to rock-and-cock a gun and bring it up to your eye.

In short, equipment rules have to allow for the very basic sort of things a player/shooter needs to do.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:32 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tom Hering View Post
I remember when the SGPA rules came out in '92. And I remember thinking, even then, that some of the restrictions didn't make much sense for paintball. For example, limiting the feed system to a horizontal tube that runs parallel with the barrel. A horizontal feed was a good design for the Nelspot's original users - foresters and cattlemen - who needed to holster their markers, or store them in a glove compartment. But it was a bad design for paintballers, who quite rightly came up with the direct feed modification. Not so much because they wanted to increase their rate of fire, but because they wanted to maintain their sight picture when recocking.

Trees, a forester's target, are stationary. And cattle don't usually jump out of view. But opponents on a paintball field can move in the moment it takes to rock-and-cock a gun and bring it up to your eye.

In short, equipment rules have to allow for the very basic sort of things a player/shooter needs to do.
By this rationale, one could argue that every modification and advancement ever made to a paintball gun (constant air, direct feeds, electric hoppers, semi/full auto action, HPA, etc.) allow a player to do things he needs to do faster and more effectively on a paintball field. Let's be honest... other than being able to discharge a paintball, there is nothing about the Nelspot's original design that makes sense for players compared with the guns available today.

If the primary concern is to have the most effective and efficient marker in order to maximize personal performance, then why even bother with stock-class and all its limitations?

(Note: All players with the correct answer will advance to the bonus round!)
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There's playing paintball with a stock-class gun, and then there's playing stock-class paintball. Big difference.
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Old 05-19-2012, 05:16 PM   #125 (permalink)
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By this rationale, one could argue that every modification and advancement ever made to a paintball gun (constant air, direct feeds, electric hoppers, semi/full auto action, HPA, etc.) allow a player to do things he needs to do faster and more effectively on a paintball field.
Ah! But notice that I didn't, in fact, stretch my argument that far. I only argued that the feed system of a paintgun should allow you to do what just about every other sort of gun allows you to do - maintain your sight picture from shot to shot. This is a pretty basic expectation in most kinds of shooting sports.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:28 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tom Hering View Post
Ah! But notice that I didn't, in fact, stretch my argument that far. I only argued that the feed system of a paintgun should allow you to do what just about every other sort of gun allows you to do - maintain your sight picture from shot to shot. This is a pretty basic expectation in most kinds of shooting sports.
I'm not sure how accurate it is to compare a gun that shoots liquid filled capsules with any other type of gun. Regarding the horizontal feed: if it's been so encumbering for players, then how has it maintained it's popularity over the years? I maintain that it's because it adds a level of challenge and slows down the pace of the game. All of this, in turn, contributes to the overall fun of the game - which is the whole point of stock-class in my mind.

And what about all the players who have no problems operating horizontal feeds? To be honest, I haven't noticed any players (new or old) being slowed down in the least by having to rock and cock. I'm constantly amazed at some of the unbelievable eliminations (from a variety of ranges) that are made using bolt-action K2s, PGPs, Nelspots, Phantoms and even Splatmasters. It's been my experience that once a player becomes accustomed to the action of their gun, the configuration of the feed system is irrelevant when talking about accuracy or overall performance. Just my 2 pesos.
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There's playing paintball with a stock-class gun, and then there's playing stock-class paintball. Big difference.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:53 AM   #127 (permalink)
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So, then, you're saying there's no real reason to limit vertical-feed players to just ten rounds, while allowing horizontal-feed players twenty rounds, as proposed in rule #2.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:09 AM   #128 (permalink)
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Not to totally jump in here, but I absolutely prefer a horizontal feed on all my guns. I can not seem to get used to a vertical feed, offset right, left or center, I just don't care for them. So for me it is the only way to fly.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. . . .

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Old 05-22-2012, 11:29 AM   #129 (permalink)
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I keep going back to the original post, and wondering about some things.

Like, what does "stock" mean? From the late 1980s to the mid-1990s, the stock configuration of a pump gun, straight from the factory, was as follows: autotrigger, direct feed, and drop-out changer or constant-air adapter. Doesn't this configuration deserve to be called "stock" when (1.) it ruled the early years of paintball for at least as long as the first HF pistol configuration, and (2.) there were more AT/DF pumps (at least a couple of dozen brands) in the early years, than there were HF pistols (three brands) in the first years, and (3.) many more players (today's old-timers) were introduced to a game played with AT/DF pumps than to a game played with HF pistols?

Yeah, the argument can be made that only the original configuration should be called "stock." But what does "original" mean? A bolt-action Nelspot? The pump handle itself was an innovation meant to increase rate-of-fire! So why allow pump handles if the point in stock class is to slow the game down, and emphasize skill? Is it because most shooters naturally expect to recock a marker in a way that allows them to keep both hands on it at all times, ready to shoot? Why shouldn't they also expect to reload paintballs in a way that allows them to maintain their sight picture, from shot to shot? See what I'm saying here? Equipment rules in pump play should allow for the basic expectations of a shooter. Especially a shooter who's new to paintball, and isn't looking for a long learning curve.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:33 AM   #130 (permalink)
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I know it takes away from the "tuning" aspect but I still say that marker limitations are best achieved by handing everyone identical (as nearly as reasonable) markers at the beginning and playing with them. Trying to define stock class leads to a spiral that ends in a Potter Steward defintion.
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