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Old 05-22-2012, 12:53 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tom Hering View Post
So, then, you're saying there's no real reason to limit vertical-feed players to just ten rounds, while allowing horizontal-feed players twenty rounds, as proposed in rule #2.
No. My position is that stock-class guns should be horizontal feeds exclusively. While I agree that there should be a standard adopted, I'm not in full agreement with all of the new proposed rules that have been posted here by Carter.

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Originally Posted by PB Weasel View Post
Not to totally jump in here, but I absolutely prefer a horizontal feed on all my guns. I can not seem to get used to a vertical feed, offset right, left or center, I just don't care for them. So for me it is the only way to fly.
^ THIS is one of the many guys I was referring to as not having any problems using a horizontal feed! My weasel welt is still visible. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Tom Hering View Post
Like, what does "stock" mean? From the late 1980s to the mid-1990s, the stock configuration of a pump gun, straight from the factory, was as follows: autotrigger, direct feed, and drop-out changer or constant-air adapter. Doesn't this configuration deserve to be called "stock" when (1.) it ruled the early years of paintball for at least as long as the first HF pistol configuration, and (2.) there were more AT/DF pumps (at least a couple of dozen brands) in the early years, than there were HF pistols (three brands) in the first years, and (3.) many more players (today's old-timers) were introduced to a game played with AT/DF pumps than to a game played with HF pistols?
I've always considered "stock" to mean the configuration of the guns during the early/mid eighties, i.e. the advent of paintball. I think this has been my, and my old team mates viewpoint because that's when we started playing.

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Originally Posted by Tom Hering View Post
Yeah, the argument can be made that only the original configuration should be called "stock." But what does "original" mean? A bolt-action Nelspot? The pump handle itself was an innovation meant to increase rate-of-fire! So why allow pump handles if the point in stock class is to slow the game down, and emphasize skill? Is it because most shooters naturally expect to recock a marker in a way that allows them to keep both hands on it at all times, ready to shoot? Why shouldn't they also expect to reload paintballs in a way that allows them to maintain their sight picture, from shot to shot? See what I'm saying here? Equipment rules in pump play should allow for the basic expectations of a shooter. Especially a shooter who's new to paintball, and isn't looking for a long learning curve.
Good point about the pump handle, but this goes back to what I consider "original" or "stock". I started playing in the days before pump handles, and can say that the addition of a pump was a welcome mod. You should have seen all the forehead slapping and all of the "Why didn't I think of that?" going on when they first hit the scene.

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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
I know it takes away from the "tuning" aspect but I still say that marker limitations are best achieved by handing everyone identical (as nearly as reasonable) markers at the beginning and playing with them. Trying to define stock class leads to a spiral that ends in a Potter Steward defintion.
^ Yes! Exactly. This guy gets it. THIS was the point of my original diatribe.

We can debate about what was "stock" or "original", or what the "basic expectations of a shooter" are for forever and a day. I don't agree that the definition of stock-class is what a gun manufacturer says it is (as one poster had mentioned earlier). I believe it's what the players determine it is. More specifically, I believe the definition is what a GAME ORGANIZER determines it is.

I have based my definition of stock-class on what the game was like in 1985 . I've based it on the many games that I've organized, and what has worked and what has not worked. I've based it on all the feedback from the players that I've played with. In short, my definition has been forged from a culmination of a combined experience.

By adopting the three simple standards (pump action, horizontally fed and 12-gram powered) every player will all have the same, basic limitations. These basic limitations offset any major equipment advantages, and more importantly, maintain the original spirit of the game. However, they are flexible enough to allow for tuning and other "gray areas" that won't provide totally unfair advantages. Outside of these basic limitations, the game organizer makes any final determinations on what is allowed and what isn't.

"Is a horizontal spring feed allowed?" Good question. In my games I said yes because any "advantage" offered by the spring feed is offset when it comes time to reload it. I also wanted to be as inclusive as possible. There are quite a few gray areas that every game organizer has to consider carefully.

I'm not saying everyone needs to do it my way, and I'm not saying that there isn't a better way of doing things. I'm saying that this is how I've run my games, and it's worked well for the past 10 years.

I understand that everyone won't be in agreement with how I set up my games, and that's totally cool. I think the most important thing I can impart at this point is that if anyone out there has a specific way they want to run a game then they should go ahead and host their own game with their own set of guidelines. If you want to host a game that is just pump action/12-gram, or pump/DF/CA, or pump/horizontal/CA or whatever then by all means set up a game. Just be prepared that if you bend one rule for one person, then you'll need to bend/change the rules for everybody.

While it would be great to have a standardized set of stock-class guidelines that everyone agrees to, I'm not sure that will ever be possible.

There are a multitude of players out there with a lot of great ideas. They're are quite a few looking for a new twist on an old game. Call it stock-class or make up your own name. If the players you play with embrace the spirit of stock-class - integrity, honor and sportsmanship then you'll have a great game no matter what the configuration of the equipment is.
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Slim doesn't know what he's talking about.

Last edited by Slim; 05-22-2012 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:42 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim View Post
While it would be great to have a standardized set of stock-class guidelines that everyone agrees to, I'm not sure that will ever be possible.

There are a multitude of players out there with a lot of great ideas. They're are quite a few looking for a new twist on an old game. Call it stock-class or make up your own name. If the players you play with embrace the spirit of stock-class - integrity, honor and sportsmanship then you'll have a great game no matter what the configuration of the equipment is.
I can accept the above as the last word on the matter.
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:15 PM   #133 (permalink)
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More specifically, I believe the definition is what a GAME ORGANIZER determines it is.
Right. You only need a commonly accepted set of rules if you're going to hold a series of events in different locations around the nation, with the purpose of determining and honoring the year's best team (and selling the stuff they use). Otherwise, leave it up to local organizers to decide what is and isn't stock class.
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Old 08-18-2012, 10:52 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Just read through allot of this and the debate is pretty cool. For me SC has always meant 12 gram fed and a horizontal feed. The auto trigger on a Phantom or Carter SC is pretty much useless so that old chestnut never made sense to me. And even back in the day every one used the old speed wheels on the 007's! So that argument didn't hold up. Now the one that always annoyed me. Barrel porting? If it made the gun more accurate or quiet it was up for debate but it did not make the gun faster which to me is the true spirit of stock class. If making a gun more accurate is a problem then, the purists should force us all to use the crap paint from back in the day! Just kidding. I love stock class but I suck at it but I still mix it up most days. If the rules were more common sense then maybe more SC games and players would emerge! Just some thoughts from a non purest. Feyd...............
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Old 08-18-2012, 02:23 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Old 08-23-2012, 05:38 PM   #136 (permalink)
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So why cant we have barrel porting, but we can have barrel extensions?
Porting= more accuracy and a quieter gun
extender= quieter gun, and "more accuracy"

I understand that porting is newer tech, but it actually accomplishes what the old tech (the extender) tried to accomplish.
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Old 08-23-2012, 05:44 PM   #137 (permalink)
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the barrel porting thing is an outdated rule of course, and a silly one as well. the barrel on a stock class gun should matter very little... as long as it's not some apex ****, all is good.
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Old 08-23-2012, 08:44 PM   #138 (permalink)
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I refer you to the following section of first post:

Proposing a Modern Day Stock Class Set of Rules

The New Proposed Rules

Pump Paintball Gun - Some manually actuated mechanical manipulation must be performed to load a ball and/or cock the action (No pneumatic assist, electronic, or mechanical advantage is allowed to assist in moving the bolt to load the paintball)
Stick Feed (Single stacked paintballs, 20 round max) running parallel to the gun or Vertical Stick (10 round max). No force feeds/springs allowed.
Single 12-gram changer (No 6-paks, turret changers etc)

What does this do? This allows for any and all pump guns. Direct feed, horizonal feed, it doesn't matter. Any direct feed style gun can easily be adapted with a 45 degree elbow and a stick that runs horizontal to the body of the gun. Allowing someone to even use their old WGP Sniper II

We allow the use of all single use 12 gram changers. This is to be sure certain guns like the Duck or Re-dux with the slam changer don't get excluded.

When we think stock class, we immediately think horizontal feed. We will however make an exception for a 10 round vertical stick feed. Some guns may not have the ability to be turned horizontal, and therefore will be limited to 10 rounds. Think of the Empire ER2, where you just jam a 10 round tube into the direct feed port. We're also going to add this in because some horizontal feeds are not perfectly horizontal, and instead of trying to differentiate what is perfectly horizontal and what is not... we'll just make sure they're covered by the rules and allowed.

What happened to the old rules?

The concept of stock class has changed, so we must change too. Nelspots are not just stock class anymore... They're vintage. You can no longer purchase them new. Just as they have special races for vintage motorcycles and vintage snowmobiles, maybe time has come to make a vintage stock class game? And since stock class no longer means what it used to mean, let's redefine it. Out of this I think we can create what can be called the "Vintage Stock Class", "Stock Class" (with the proposed rules), and an "Open Class" for pump paintball.

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I don't so much make money, as provide a conduit for it's movement.
Stock class = 12grams and a stick feed. End discussion.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:05 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Sorry to jump in here now, but I have a few thoughts on this.

First, I have never understood the rules for "STOCK" play. If for no other reason than there is no stipulation in the rule that the 12gr must be inside the grip. The first time I ever played was with stock nellies and you had to remove a screw to remove the side grip to replace the 12gram, then put it all back together.

Were I king for a day, paintball would look a bit like this:

CLASS: Action / Air Source / Feed Type / Max balls in magazine / barrel

STOCK: Pump / 12 gr (no lever-change) / parallel to barrel / 15 / non-ported smooth

BASIC: Pump / 12 gr / Parallel or Non-Parallel / 20 / any

VINTAGE: Pump / 12 gr or CA / Parallel or non-parallel / 20 / any

PUMP: Pump / ANY / Non-Electro/ ANY / ANY

MECH: Pump or Mechanical Semi / ANY / Non-electro / ANY / ANY

12 GRAM: ANY / 12 gr* / ANY / ANY / ANY
*-each player is allowed a single 12g each game – no changing.
I don't care WHAT you're shooting, if your limited to a single 12gram, you'll get accurate in a hurry. This would also promote advancements in efficiency.

3.5 oz - same as 12gr but with single 3.5 oz CA tank which must last the entire tournament.


A/T - Auto Trigger Allowed.
LP - limited paint, set by event may apply to any class. Limit is the number of paintballs a player may carry onto the field for each game.

12 GRAM LP would be 12 Gram with limited paint.
PUMP LP A/T would be PUMP with limited Paint and Auto-Trigger permitted.

We have already established that "Pump" means a gun in which the bolt must be manually cycled between shots.

The issue... not enough players to support all of these leagues. In a perfect world, maybe, but probably not the world we live in. Too bad, really - It would have been glorious!
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:28 AM   #140 (permalink)
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Some good ideas above but as you said the pie just isn't big enough to slice that way.

Carter did a great job on this writeup. It was researched, well thought out and keeps points that can commonly be agreed on while eliminating many rules that were less universal and that serve as roadblocks to participation.

Some have said that we need an authority figure/league/organization to dictate the rules for people to take them seriously. Well, the guy that runs one of the largest, arguably the best, paintball forum in the world. With possibly the most Stock Class player traffic, of any forum. Who also happens to be in charge of an online paintball museum. Thats authority enough for me, not that I matter.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertsr View Post
I don't so much make money, as provide a conduit for it's movement.
Stock class = 12grams and a stick feed. End discussion.
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