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-   -   Why the Surrender Rule Doesn't Work (http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/dead-zone/181398-why-surrender-rule-doesnt-work.html)

NSGSplatmaster 11-06-2011 08:35 PM

Why the Surrender Rule Doesn't Work
 
Some interesting raw footage from a game today, starring yours truly. I did not want to go blasting full 15 BPS (this is a customer E-Cocker) into this building because A, I didn't want to light people up at close range and B, there was the potential for little kids to be inside. There was a referee nearby but he was sort of chilling outside the building. At the getgo, everyone on the front wall AND the back wall should have been pulled. I could have gone around the other way and just brutally blasted people but I didn't.

Also, LOL at the guy with the Tippmann that managed to miss me at point blank range. The off-screen referee found that pretty amusing.

One final note for everyone that complains about out of control electro-shooters. You'll notice that at no time in this sequence do I brutally destroy anyone.

Special thanks to Airsports Paintball in Ludlow, MA: they throw some fun games and there's a place for both beginners and experienced players, speedball and milsim. I am definitely NOT into woodsball so it says something that I drive there to go play woodsball.

Untitled on Vimeo

WARNING: Foul language at the very end.

Milky Spore 11-06-2011 09:19 PM

This is why I scream as loud as I can and point my gun right in someone's face if I know I'm coming up on males in their teens or older. I won't shoot somebody after running up on them if I'm within 15 feet (field rule), but you have to go for the intimidation factor. However, I wouldn't want to scare off a small kid or timid woman or girl. Being really tall and fast probably helps out too.

However, what my interpretation on the rule is that a player is not eliminated from play until marked, eliminated by a referee, or removes him/herself from play. By yelling at people to surrender you are simply giving them the chance to avoid a painful bunkering. I am always on my guard when making a surrender move, because it is completely fair for the people I am asking to surrender to shoot back at me. The surrender rule doesn't mean whoever you're yelling at has to immediately remove themselves from play. While a ref can't always be around, if they are they should be paying attention to make a determination if the a player who got warned to surrender should be removed from play for safety reasons. For example, I've had people run straight at me out of their bunker, while I'm still under cover, from 30' away with their gun pointed down frantically yelling for me to surrender. How are you going to expect somebody to give up under those circumstances?

You did run up on a whole building full of them. You were clearly outnumbered. What did you think was going to happen? The last time I played I ran up on a medium sized bunker with a father and his three sons yelling for them to surrender when I rounded the corner of it. I'm completely baffled as to why they all didn't shoot me, because I was only expecting the father to be in the bunker. I feel that the rule works. If you want to take the easy way out and save the welts you should be given the option in recreational play. However, if you'd like to gamble go ahead. By being the person doing the surrendering you are the one making the deal. Someone's gotta lose.

Back when I used to play X-ball...what surrender rule? You were supposed to take 8 shots to the dome from a foot away and like it!

RatFink 11-06-2011 09:39 PM

I can never get Vimeo videos to load right, so I couldn't see what happened. That said, I have surrendered quite a few people, my record being five people at once and only ever had to shoot it out once, ever... The ref's usually thank me whenever I do too.

potts213 11-06-2011 09:53 PM

The problem is that new players get scared when someone runs up to them yelling and there first reaction is to shoot! Saw this happen multiple times today.

beebs 11-06-2011 10:02 PM

i generally get as close as i can while maintaining cover, tell a nearby ref to offer him surrender or die, or offer it myself. if they say die i run through on them.

ta2maki 11-06-2011 10:07 PM

I just don't see how one person can surrender a room full of people.

You call a surrender to someone when you have a clear shot at them and they do not have at you. Kind of like a checkmate. You save them from being needlessly shot. There is no way you can do this by yourself against a room full of people.

Uranus 11-06-2011 10:10 PM

I normally yell get the F out, I Fing killed you, Get the F out you mother F'er F sucking F with your uncle jim F on your monkey F'er. Or is that what the yell at me, I don't remember.

NateDaGreat 11-06-2011 10:11 PM

I normally dont surrender people do to this or that 1 guy that shoots you, I try to aim for their mask/marker if im close.

NSGSplatmaster 11-06-2011 10:13 PM

Milky, thanks for your response. I am well versed in tournament play and would remind you that rec ball is never the same as open play. I posted the video for discussion, not to complain. Obviously if this was some sort of tournament, I would have just blasted everyone inside immediately, or gone to the corner of the building and blasted everyone immediately (which would have hurt a great deal for everyone involved inside). I also would not have given people ample time to vacate the bunker.

Its definitely a tricky thing to deal with as a referee. Usually when I ref big games, I'm cognizant about who is in the bunker and what could potentially happen. If its two older guys, let them at it. If its an older guy with kids or newbies inside, I sometimes advise the more experienced player not to be ridiculous. The other problem though is that if you have a "no approach within 10 feet" rule, you get a trillion people stacked up in a bunker and the game quickly stalemates. It only takes two "big bunkers" like a big house to suck a hilarious amount of people in, and on big wooded fields, if you are not allowed to be aggressive, those are essentially invincible positions.

I guess I'm lucky, in all my years playing "full match" X Ball and 7 man, I never got shot 8 consecutive times in the dome. Fingers crossed.

GoatBoy 11-06-2011 10:36 PM

I have my problems with the surrender rule, but I don't see anything caused by the rule in this video. This is why we have video, so you can kind of review your errors and think back how it should have gone down.

At a minimum:

1. Should have coordinated the move with a teammate. There was a teammate with you, at least briefly.
2. Should have indicated to the ref that things were about to get very real inside the bunker. Just a hand signal usually does it.

Surrendering multiple opponents is a dicey proposition. Either you get them all in a line so you can blast them all simultaneously if need be, or you pick one guy to surrender, allowing you to train your gun on him, and deny anyone else an angle to shoot you while you're doing it. If he does anything other than raise his hand, you cap him, duck down, and then ask everyone else inside to surrender again. "If you don't want to get shot, surrender. Leave the bunker." Saying "surrender" isn't enough; you must give them (particularly the shellshocked newbs) a path out. Gotta get psychological on them. Even when they have the inclination to surrender but don't know where to go that will be safe from getting shot, guess what they might wind up doing?

Not sure if standing there arguing with the guys was really productive, either.

What I've been doing lately, if I think things are going to get dodgy, is ask the ref ahead of time to ask the people to surrender. This hurts stealth slightly (assuming they even know where you're asking them to surrender from), but the tradeoff is if they refuse, then I've just been sanctioned to go in with guns blazing.


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