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Old 03-07-2012, 11:29 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The Inflicted View Post
Perhaps y'all misunderstand me.
The arrangement was that Air Concept Industries manufactured the Trracer for PMI, just as Benjamin/Sheridan manufactured the VM-68 for them.
I'm fairly certain that the Trracer came before the Maverick, but all the guns were made by ACI.
I have no idea who designed any of them, but was there really anything unique about the Razorback among Nelson clones?

I think my mistake is that in my initial post is that I said NPS- I meant PMI.
This was long, long before NPS/KEE acquired PMI.
The history that I found is that PMI designed the gun and released it in 1992 or so. ACI bought the rights at some point and distributed their own branded version of it. This seems to be re-inforced by the ~1992 design patents that a person associated with PMI owns. The improved design was probably the Tagmaster which surfaced in 94 or so.

Another interesting tidbit I found is that there were actually 3 versions of the guns from both companies. The Trracer, Trracer Deluxe and the Tagmaster. The Deluxe had the adjustable velocity bolt and I'm just guessing but maybe the longer barrel. I think somewhere in there was a version with a 12g adapter.

Not sure what was so special about the Razorback other than it was fairly cheap and if you look at the pics it has an uncanny resemblence to the Trracer (or vice-versa).
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:35 PM   #22 (permalink)
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My memory on this is a touch fuzzy, cause of how very briefly they were came and dissapeared, is that they had a kit that plugged into the rear of the f4 and the budget version (cant recall what the little f4 was called anymore - the gryphon!) that was essentially a ram that ran the bolt/hammer back and forth. There was a LPR that replaced the valve cap, and the electronics and a pneu switch in the grip. I never had one, and the kits went into obscurity quickly. If memory serves the self contained electro grip frames like the center flag and later on factory ones were considered to be better.

Those kits didn't circulate for very long, and I never had first hand experience with them. I most certainly wouldnt want to try and track one down nowadays, even for the rarity.
Oh yeah, that Griffin conversion. I had a few Griffins (what a terrible gun) and the kit always looked interesting but way expensive especially for what comporable stuff was available. Plus I don't think very many people actually got them working well. It was the sonic conversion kit:
ACI Sonic Conversion | Paintball Review | pbreview.com
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:34 AM   #23 (permalink)
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The actual features for the trracer and trracer deluxe (aka tagmaster) or maverick and hornet (respectfully) trickled down tear to year. I dont think there was ever more than 2 specs at a single time in production. IE one spec had an adjustable bolt while the other did not, then the next year the bolt became standard but the upgraded powertube/hammer was the new feature on the higher spec. The anti double feed, anti double-cocking, the steel insets in the trigger, all were trickle-down features you would find on both models through the years. I am pretty sure the tagmaster was exclusively the trracer deluxe through this whole evolution, and then under ACI the maverick was the base model and the hornet got the undercocking, and in the last year of production I think the maverick recieved undercocking as well.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:41 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by spymongoose View Post
The gripframe from the raptor is recycled from the rainmaker, and the Raptor body saw some significant changes. F-4's share a barrel threading with trracers, and raptor barrels are probably the oddest threading in the universe. The ball detente on the f4 is a wire one, I think the one one the raptor is a spyder nubbin. But knowing that much, and that the internals are generally swappable, should keep your f4 chuffing till you run out of raptors.

EDIT : I keep a raptor around just to feed my F2
Now that sounds strange. I had both an f4 and a trracer at the sme time I had a tippmann a5. At one point I was messing around and ended up discovering that the stock barrel for my f4 threaded into my a5, the trracer barels dis not. I even got it cut down by my brother inlaw into a stubby barrel.

Also, I thought the f4 model name was the illustrator rather than the gryphon. At least that's the way I remember it.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:49 AM   #25 (permalink)
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The illustrator was the f2 model, they kept the name illustrator for the f4's for a time in thier marketing to "carry the legacy", and was later shortened to just f4. And yes you're right, a trracer threaded barrel will thread into a prolite, but not the other way around. The two are very close. the griffin ( <-- im pretty sure now thats how it was spelled ) was a cut down f4, without the top cocking slider and bits of the rear body missing.

google image search to the rescue!

See that? Dont buy those unles you want spare parts for your f4.
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:29 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spymongoose View Post
The gripframe from the raptor is recycled from the rainmaker, and the Raptor body saw some significant changes.
Other way around, considering that the Raptor came first, and the two aren't strictly identical. The casting is almost the same but the inside of a Raptor frame won't accommodate a Rainmaker circuit board without some work.

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Originally Posted by spymongoose View Post
F-4's share a barrel threading with trracers, and raptor barrels are probably the oddest threading in the universe.
I've never heard of anyone using F-4 barrels on a Trracer, but I do know that you can put F2 barrels on a Raptor and Tippmann Carbine/Prolite/A5/X7 barrels on an F4. Not sure about compatibility between those though.

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Originally Posted by MaD View Post
The history that I found is that PMI designed the gun and released it in 1992 or so. ACI bought the rights at some point and distributed their own branded version of it. This seems to be re-inforced by the ~1992 design patents that a person associated with PMI owns. The improved design was probably the Tagmaster which surfaced in 94 or so.
ACI always made the Trracer/Maverick and Tagmaster/Hornet series of guns in Northbrook, Illinois.
The Trracer and Tagmaster were made by Air Concepts Industries for sale by PMI.
It even said so on the side of the guns.

I had this particular gun a couple months ago, and of the two-dozen or so Trracer-family guns I've owned this one is definitely the oldest and most primitive. Serial number is very low, #2632.
Full size images:
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As for who designed the gun, again I have no idea, but by the time the Trracer came out there were dozens of similar Nelson clones already on the market. Except for the Phantom and Carter guns, the Trracer/Maverick outlasted them all.

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Originally Posted by MaD View Post
Another interesting tidbit I found is that there were actually 3 versions of the guns from both companies. The Trracer, Trracer Deluxe and the Tagmaster. The Deluxe had the adjustable velocity bolt and I'm just guessing but maybe the longer barrel. I think somewhere in there was a version with a 12g adapter.
Here's a French advertisement for the Trracer, though I'm not sure what year it was distributed.



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The deluxe and standard versions usually came with 10.5 barrels, though some guns I've run across have had a shorter factory barrel. Factory shortbarrels are more rare.

The Tagmaster/Hornet were essentially different guns with different bodies, bolts, and pumps due to their dual-rod undercocking arrangement. All of these came with adjustable bolts.

This is a Tagmaster I sold last year. Again you can see that it has both PMI and ACI logos on the side.



Quote:
Originally Posted by spymongoose View Post
The actual features for the trracer and trracer deluxe (aka tagmaster) or maverick and hornet (respectfully) trickled down tear to year. I dont think there was ever more than 2 specs at a single time in production. IE one spec had an adjustable bolt while the other did not, then the next year the bolt became standard but the upgraded powertube/hammer was the new feature on the higher spec. The anti double feed, anti double-cocking, the steel insets in the trigger, all were trickle-down features you would find on both models through the years. I am pretty sure the tagmaster was exclusively the trracer deluxe through this whole evolution, and then under ACI the maverick was the base model and the hornet got the undercocking, and in the last year of production I think the maverick recieved undercocking as well.

Here's a scan from my 888 paintball catalog from 1998 or so showing all 3 tiers of the ACI versions of these guns.


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Old 03-08-2012, 04:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
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That french catalog scan is pretty cool, shows the dropout version as well.

Honestly on the chicken / egg discussion IDK. It could very well have just been a manufacturing thing. All I can conclude is that Brian Sullivan (who worked for PMI) patented the gun ~1992. As you said, ACI obviously manufactured some (if not all) of them and at some point apparently made an agreement to run off their own branded versions. That's about the best conclusion I can come to with the information that's available. Maybe someday he'll google his name, find this thread and fill us in.
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:16 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I knew about the Griffin and Sonic Griffin but they also had sear trippers like the Korrupt, Assasin/Blind Rage and I think one or two others that you never see. Those all came out just before I stopped hearing or seeing anything from them.
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Since this thread started with boobs what are we supposed to derail it with?
Stock class = 12grams and a stick feed. End discussion.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:16 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Inflicted View Post
I've never heard of anyone using F-4 barrels on a Trracer, but I do know that you can put F2 barrels on a Raptor and Tippmann Carbine/Prolite/A5/X7 barrels on an F4. Not sure about compatibility between those though.
F2 barrels

^^just saying.
The rest is borrowed from Barrel Thread Guide
raptor barrel (same threads as F1)

prolite/a5

Trracer


Edit:
The breech OD on the prolite threads is higher than the one on the prolite but the thread pitch (not diameter) is the same. A trracer barrel will fit into prolite threads (not naturally or correctly, but it will fit) but not the other way around. Additionally f4 barrels tended to have a 1" od at the base of the barrel, so that a trracer pump handle would not fit over it.
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Last edited by spymongoose; 03-08-2012 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:48 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Anyone have any experience with any of the ACI electronic guns especially the Blind Rage?
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Quote:
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Since this thread started with boobs what are we supposed to derail it with?
Stock class = 12grams and a stick feed. End discussion.
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