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Old 10-14-2012, 11:33 PM   #331 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tallen702 View Post
Regardless of how you feel, high volumes of paint in rec games have been a reality since the late 90's when prices began to drop drastically. When people have the means, they shoot more. I'm not arguing that the guy in OP's video isn't a jackass, because he is. What I'm arguing is that:
A) Participation dried up because of the economy, not some jerk overshooting
B) That videos of jerks overshooting doesn't cause other people to become jerks that overshoot
and
C) Paintball changes whether anyone likes it or not. And until everyone suddenly decides that 12g's and 10 rounders are the only way to go, it'll keep evolving in the direction it has been since we swapped nelspots and splatmasters for PMI's with Constant air and "ammo boxes"
Good points. In a game where firepower gives you an advantage, the natural direction it will evolve is towards more firepower. The only way that will not be true is if the firepower is somehow held back.

Lohman is right though that participation started to decline before the economy started heading south. Industry heads got together and held meetings about the declines while the economy was still booming. The speculation by most of the industry was that the decline was due to too much firepower at recreational fields. And although they made some haphazard attempts at reversing that trend, they found out that there was f*** all they could do about it.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:16 AM   #332 (permalink)
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The Milsim scene isn't really clean of this. I've been hosed with a boxmag fed full auto Milsim style marker which happened to be shooting hot(I have scars as proof).

Sports are games that provide strong incentives(often financial) for a level of competition that borders on hostility. This really interferes with enjoying a friendly game. I'd like to bring some of my friends back to the game but they have bad memories of douchebags overshooting while yelling. It makes for a difficult sell.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:52 AM   #333 (permalink)
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While we don't always have an awesome turn out for pump and pistol, it's always pretty good times. Was cool to see the group of younger guys choose to play with us instead of in open class.

I think this is one of the killers. Pump and pistol sounds great but sometimes we forget it is a very niche market. Hopefully you will be doing that next year and I will make at least one. Its not hard to understand why a field owner looks at a handful (I have no idea of attendence) of guys shooting a bag of paint a piece and does not cater to them the same way he or she might cater to a larger group of people shooting a lot more paint.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:58 AM   #334 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
Good points. In a game where firepower gives you an advantage, the natural direction it will evolve is towards more firepower. The only way that will not be true is if the firepower is somehow held back.

Lohman is right though that participation started to decline before the economy started heading south. Industry heads got together and held meetings about the declines while the economy was still booming. The speculation by most of the industry was that the decline was due to too much firepower at recreational fields. And although they made some haphazard attempts at reversing that trend, they found out that there was f*** all they could do about it.

Grey Ops: Paintball and the Economy - Guest Post by Doug Brown

"What killed the housing market was the same thing that killed paintball. More. It wasnt BPS that changed the market though, it was how we bought homes. ... In 2006 the same thing happened in paintball. A gun called the ION came out, and everybody thought they could shoot 25 balls per second....There were plenty of warning signs of what was about to happen. In the 2005 inaugural meeting of the Paintball Sports Trade Association the president of the largest company in paintball told everyone (and I do mean everyone) that the number of new players coming into the sport had fallen off a cliff. ... With the exception of one company, every representative in the room said business was off and off drastically. It was why we were all at the meeting. Did we do anything? No. There was still money to be made. So we all went back to our businesses and did what we had been doing. "
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:03 AM   #335 (permalink)
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Grey Ops: Paintball and the Economy - Guest Post by Doug Brown

"What killed the housing market was the same thing that killed paintball. More. It wasn’t BPS that changed the market though, it was how we bought homes. ... In 2006 the same thing happened in paintball. A gun called the ION came out, and everybody thought they could shoot 25 balls per second....There were plenty of warning signs of what was about to happen. In the 2005 inaugural meeting of the Paintball Sports Trade Association the president of the largest company in paintball told everyone (and I do mean everyone) that the number of new players coming into the sport had fallen off a cliff. ... With the exception of one company, every representative in the room said business was off and off drastically. It was why we were all at the meeting. Did we do anything? No. There was still money to be made. So we all went back to our businesses and did what we had been doing. "
I think, as long as we are willing to point to unsupported external forces and not look at we could have done differently, we are going to have an issue. Does Mr. Brown sight any study, and numbers, any data, any analysis?

Nope. Judging by how most paintball companies have been run (exceptions exist) I don't trust that many of them are subject matter experts on most business matters.

Am I saying it must have been paint in the air? No though it is the reason I expect. I am willing to bet the data probably supports that hypothesis as well as the "its the economy" one. Don't consider me an expert, I don't care enough to gather and run the analysis. That those actually in the business don't want to should be concerning.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:23 AM   #336 (permalink)
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Sometimes I wonder if paintball suffered a decline because in the early 2000's it suddenly became cool to play paintball. It wasn't a cult thing anymore. So all the hipster kids who wanted to be different lost interest. That's just speculation though
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:58 AM   #337 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER View Post
I see you on every single forum, just stirring **** up. Do you actually go to the field on the weekends and play? It seems like all you do is troll on the forums and own a paintball gun.

Also, Msonic is a helluva nice guy and the last person I'd think would want to keep kids out of the sport. He was just having fun, and playing the way he wants to.

Quote:
The game I still play is a lot different than what is shown on most tournament fields. The game I love to play is different. Its still a game I find at at least one open play facility (I betcha I could find it at Horizons as well). You will forgive me if I think that "trying to get the sport on TV" or into the Olympics is a disastor if that is what we are going to show and do everything I can to avoid supporting it.
I believe the USA paintball powers that be have decided the webcast is a MUCH more viable format. We aren't a sport for mainstream television. Sure, maybe Airball/Xball/variants started out as a more viewer friendly way to play, but its turned into something we as players love to do. I enjoy regular recball, and I dont overshoot new guys, but PSP/NPPL is where I put my heart and soul on the field.

You might want to keep it as just a friendly game, where-as I train 7 days a week, run/condition/drill just so I can get a spot on that PSP podium NEXT year.

If you love the sport, then stop complaining about how we're ruining it, just go play.. or better yet, borrow one of my paint sprayers and hit the airball field. If you don't wanna do that, stick to stock class and fields that cater to a newer/older crowd.

Quote:
How long it will be until i will have to quit altogether because a certain strata of players, and their sycophants, giddily employ a tactic, that essentially the same as walking over and punching the opponent in the back of the head?
I'm sorry, but come on.. if you can't take a bit of fast paced paintball, with a lot of paint in the air because you might get shot a few more times, go play frisbee golf or something.

Last edited by Cottontail; 10-15-2012 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:03 AM   #338 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
.. That those actually in the business don't want to should be concerning.
IMO: thats a pretty hard pill to swallow: to bring in more customers you must restrict their behavior and sell less product.

Naturally Higher ROF = more paint sales... but Mr. Brown argues that ROF reached a pivotal point where it became damaging siting 2005 as the pivot point.

IMO: increasing ROF beyond a certain point can and does discourage new players from participating. As a result over time the older players retire / quit and there are not enough new players replacing them - hence the decline.

Then add the recession skimming off the money and the emergence of airsoft and call of duty skimming the interest of the younger players.

But it began with the ION.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:18 AM   #339 (permalink)
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Rof makes the game boring to play and even more boring to watch. I don't mind playing mixed games I play pump against uncapped semi electros all the time and I've never felt disadvantaged. Personal I don't think it's an advantage or a skill set. Especially when I see guys go out there and get fewer eliminations than I do which isn't much. So I don't so much argue for or against the ethics of Rof but more like question WHY. Why do people find it necessary to shoot that much when so far I've rarely seen it pay off for them more than if they had to bent their will to aim and hit their target in a few rounds as possible.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:25 AM   #340 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cottontail View Post
You might want to keep it as just a friendly game, where-as I train 7 days a week, run/condition/drill just so I can get a spot on that PSP podium NEXT year.

If you love the sport, then stop complaining about how we're ruining it, just go play.. or better yet, borrow one of my paint sprayers and hit the airball field. If you don't wanna do that, stick to stock class and fields that cater to a newer/older crowd.
I've played the sport. Not to the speed it is played today and not at the level of competition you do but I played it to at least the level of some of the big events.

I suggest if you have the athletic ability and the dedication to seriously compete in a sport you find a different sport . I mean that nicely.

I don't mind paintball as it is played in the tournament scene. I find it boring to watch but had a lot of fun playing it, at least most of the time. What I have an issue with is when those tactics bleed over to recreational play.
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"Use peaceful means where they are appropriate; but where they are not appropriate, do not hesitate to resort to more forceful - Thupten Gyatso (the Dalai Lama, 1932)

"It is not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters" Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant.

"The ink of scholars is more precious than the blood of martyrs" - Muhammed
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