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Old 10-15-2012, 12:53 PM   #351 (permalink)
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As a veteran player I can recognize that certain venues and certain formats are played in entirely different ways - ie with a lot more paint in the air and a good chance of being shot a lot more times. I do not expect a new player to know this and most venues make zero attempt to let anyone know this.

If I chose to play in a high ROF environment I make that choice and accept the outcome of it. New players sometimes get into it without knowing or being told. They then do not realize there are other types of paintball out there.

We have done a very poor job of distinguishing between the types of play out there and enforcing those distinctions. Why is it that the rookie division is using the exact same equipment (often times at least) as the pro division?
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:01 PM   #352 (permalink)
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But home values and empty houses are geographically distinct. That is to say Vegas has an entirely different home market then North Dakota. If we are going to use real estate information as a judge we should have the ability to match sales geographically and create a distinction to see if that is the case.

Not necessarily. The reality is that a living wage and the cost to buy a home, while disparate in physical numbers varying on geographical locale, is relative to a national trend and thus, can be plotted logarithmically (which is what the various data collection companies do to figure out the impacts of home sales, foreclosures, etc.)

That's not to say that you wouldn't see a correlation between areas with high foreclosure rates and decreased field participation, you most likely would. But this is where the "outlaw" aspect of the game comes into play. When I was working in the industry, there was a HUGE presence of paintball in the Mid-Hudson valley, but you wouldn't know it from looking at the fields over at Survival NY. Two of the local shops in the Poughkeepsie area arranged massive "outlaw" games (100-200+ people) I'd say nearly 75% of our sales were directly related to the games that we put on either on private land we rented for Saturday and Sunday, or on public land which was "given" to us to use for the purpose of putting on the games. This kind of thing goes on all over the place, so using the field-to-foreclosure ratio wouldn't necessarily work on a geographic basis.

As for stores-to-foreclosure ratios, that's even less reliable due to the fact that most paintball related sales are online instead of brick-and-mortar these days.

I think you have to look at this type of thing on a national level to make sense of it.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:10 PM   #353 (permalink)
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OK: it aint empirical but I know Ive watched the novices show up to the field really excited about playing, and ready to play with everyone else.. and some guy with too much gun goes over to the chronorange and ripps off a burst. Next think you know the novices look at their rental 98, realize they are out gunned, and then immediately start working to make sure they have a private group... and thats assuming the field has the numbers, staff, etc to afford them to have a private group.

Overall the one rip has a CHILLING EFFECT on the novices.

for empirical results I'de say conduct a survey of the novice groups about their experiences at the fields that mix groups vs those that don't mix groups and compare the results. Maybe add the question:
: Are you more or less likely to try paintball again after your experience here today?
I can agree that it can have an effect on the newbie rental guys out there, but I honestly believe that at that point the onus is on the field owner to ensure that one of two things happen. Either:
A) Rental walk-ons have a separate group (this happens at nearly all of the fields around me)
or
B) The owner/ref/lady selling hotdogs/whoever goes over and has the guy switch it over to semi if the rental walk-ons are going to be playing in a mixed group (this sometimes happens when there are only a few guys out there playing. E.G. in the dead of winter). I can't think of a single person in my entire time playing who has taken offense to a ref requesting the put it on straight semi, and take it easy on the rental/new guys.

Again, the onus is all on the field owners and staff to ensure that the rules are followed and that everyone has a good time out there regardless of the style of play. If someone breaks the rules and hoses the 12 year old whose birthday present was going out to play with some walk-ons, then they need to be ejected from the game and the field. But if you just stand by and let it happen, you're just as bad, if not worse, than the guy actually doing the deed.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:31 PM   #354 (permalink)
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Tallen I am not arguing that your conclusion has no validity, don't take it as such. What I am saying is that through the use of disassociation (finding a place where the trend is not true - but is otherwise similiar) you could support the theory or find a flaw in it.

My concern is it does not look like the industry is interested in doing this. Its easier to blame the economy rather than looking at things they could change. That should be troublesome.
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"Use peaceful means where they are appropriate; but where they are not appropriate, do not hesitate to resort to more forceful - Thupten Gyatso (the Dalai Lama, 1932)

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Old 10-15-2012, 01:38 PM   #355 (permalink)
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My concern is it does not look like the industry is interested in doing this. Its easier to blame the economy rather than looking at things they could change. That should be troublesome.
I'll agree to that.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:49 PM   #356 (permalink)
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I'm sorry, but come on.. if you can't take a bit of fast paced paintball, with a lot of paint in the air because you might get shot a few more times, go play frisbee golf or something.
You missed the point.
Its not about getting shot a few times, its about getting shot a lot, with most of that paint coming over after you already called yourself out, or at pointblank range, or when 2-4 shots is more than enough, and then listening to those players bragging how they awesomely and hilariously lit you up.
That is akin to punching someone in the back of the head.

Field owners for the most part do nothing, in fact a field i used to frequent, dropped its open field ban on full auto and ramping, to accommodate their home team, and their friends, because those fellas aint satisfied by ripping on the speedball field, they want to rip on the woodsball field too.

And this attitude of "HTF or GTFO" doesnt help, in fact it says that paintball aint that diverse and welcoming as everyone claims. One style of play is placed on the throne, and all the others told to adapt (become the same) or quit.

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Old 10-15-2012, 01:50 PM   #357 (permalink)
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Who knows if PSP will be around in a few years. With the massive amounts of new players being discouraged by the high ROF, I wouldn't be surprised if PSP participation dies out due to lack of fresh competitors.
If anything, I think PSP has the best model out there right now. They've also been at the forefront of dropping ROF to make the game more affordable and exciting. 12.5bps ramping was their idea, hell they even tried 10bps.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:25 PM   #358 (permalink)
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...We have done a very poor job of distinguishing between the types of play out there and enforcing those distinctions. Why is it that the rookie division is using the exact same equipment (often times at least) as the pro division?
Grey Ops: Paintball: A Study of Free Market Capitalism - Guest Post by Doug Brown
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http://www.greyops.net/2011/09/paint...t-post-by.html
"I only have one regulation for paintball. In addition to 300 fps and 15 bps I think we need to add: You are only allowed to take a maximum of X number paintballs on the field. Somebody besides me can solve for X. The number doesn’t matter that much. 400? 600? 800? Pick a number. It would make the game fair. It would make the game more fun. It would make the game more affordable. "
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:46 PM   #359 (permalink)
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Mr. Brown's article is interesting. It is written from the economics side of it. The discussion of limited paint I think is a good one to have.

I want to have the same discussion from a philosophical side of it. One of the basic moral principles is the harm principle as discussed by John Stuart Mill. In short it argues that your right to action ends when it effects me. You may for instance swing your fists around wildly but when it hits the end of my nose your right to act has overstepped.

When we play paintball we enter into an agreement of consenting participants. We know, by the nature of the game, that another player might shoot us. This is where it gets interesting. To fully consent an individual has to know what they are consenting to. Does the new player who shows up in camo and snags a rental marker actually know what they are getting into? Is there a way to address this reasonably that does. You saw the post above me that says "if you go onto an open field don't complain about someone shooting ropes" or some such. I can make an equally reasonable argument that says such behavior should be limited. However I think we can all agree on an argument that says the vital bit of information on what is acceptable is what the players expect or should expect.
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"Use peaceful means where they are appropriate; but where they are not appropriate, do not hesitate to resort to more forceful - Thupten Gyatso (the Dalai Lama, 1932)

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Old 10-15-2012, 02:47 PM   #360 (permalink)
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Really great article I gotta say though I really think that limited paint would work better then simply marking up the price. There's an Individual who runs a lot of scenarios here in md. He buys some of the worst paint I've ever seen and slaps one of the worst mark ups I've seen. There's still tons of over shooting. And for that and dozens of other reasons I've never ones had fun at his scenarios. I really had hoped he had gone away forever when his cash cow in Bowie had gone under and his other field that later became oxcc and is now leaps and bounds better than it was. But he's still here infecting the whole state. Any ways I guess what I'm saying is price doesn't matter much if it did people wouldn't spend gobs of money to turn sleeper cars into drag kings to blow away the unknowing competitor . That's the point of stock class both in paintball and with cars. To force he operator not to rely on his gear. And make it more entertaining
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