mcarterbrown.com  

The Dead Zone Paintball Related Chat

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-05-2012, 04:05 AM   #31 (permalink)
Not Worthy Of "MCBer"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfos00 View Post
Could not disagree with you more there, especially if you want to do it on the cheap. You have essentially 3 valves types, one if you want to stay below 100 on it. You have about 3 body types if you don't want to run over 100. There isn't a lot to change out in terms of operating systems in a mag. There are really only a couple frame types that are bolt on, again, unless you want to spend a ton or mod the parts, which the OP again said he didn't want to do. They beauty of a mag IS it's simplicity. Most trained monkeys could build a mag with very little effort, and that's a positive in terms of design and function, not so much in terms of tinkering.

Mags do have a lot of options, but not many that are cheap and very little that are functionally different if you don't want to get into complexities of building a frame out, which is what the OP specifically mentioned. If you have any mechanical skill, a mag build should last about 30 minutes if you aren't going Pneu or EP on it. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who has built a pnuemag, Egomag, RT'ed mag, and shot one for about a decade. Again, fantastic engineering but not what the OP seemed to want in his postings.
I admit that I have been out of the cocker market for more than a decade.

How many valve types are available for a cocker... keeping it below $100... which are functionally different?

How many body types are available for a cocker, keeping it below $100, which are functionally different?


I understand that OP seemed to want a specific thing in his posting.

But perhaps OP should rethink things.
__________________
Quote:
He posts videos of himself on Youtube never leaving the furthest back bunker.
Even when playing against rental noobs, he is immobilized.
Logic and reason are anathema to him; but this does not deter him from prattling on.
He is the most interesting player in the world.
GoatBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 08:03 AM   #32 (permalink)
pump snob
 
thumper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
..
How many valve types are available for a cocker... keeping it below $100... which are functionally different?

How many body types are available for a cocker, keeping it below $100, which are functionally different?
the first question should be regulated or non-regulated and work backwards from there.

non-regulated (600-1000psi) = mags or pre-2k cockers with stock high pressure low volume valves, small air chambers, and any old internals.

regulated (300-400psi) = 2K+ cockers w/ internals that are low pressure high volume friendly. (grossly over-generalized)... and a decent reg designed for the task.

e.g., start with an operating pressure and build to that pressure. cocker internals were made to work at a fairly specific* operating pressure. Pick a pressure and work backwards. *(again over-generalized)
__________________
--- pıɐ-ןooʞ ǝɥʇ ʞuıɹp ʇ,uop---
thumper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 05:37 PM   #33 (permalink)
GMO Population control
 
RatFink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: A floating island

Oh boy, oh boy, I haven't seen a good Mag Vs. Cocker argument in a while.... Go boys! don't forget closed bolt is more accurate, mags are faster...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
If you can't be bothered to pick up your 12 grams, you don't deserve to be playing on a field. You have pockets. Use them.
Feedback
RatFink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 11:05 PM   #34 (permalink)
Midget Enthusiast
 
cfos00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Washington, DC
Send a message via AIM to cfos00

We could turn this into a mechanical pissing contest, but that's running the thread completely off topic for the OP.

If he has it broken down to 'Cocker or old Angel, the question really becomes do you like mechanical tinkering, or love soldiering? Older Angels are actually really simple markers mechanically with some interesting choices in stock electronics and batteries. You can pick up an old LED or LCD on the cheap, toss a UTB in them (9v and multiple firing modes if that's your thing,---it will fit in the third tube in the body and battery will fit in the grip frame of an LED), solder the puppy up and you're good to go. The positives are that most parts are dirt cheap including barrels. When I rebuilt one of my old LED projects, I got a full set of matched Dye UL backs for under 60. The volumizers, frames, asa's, bolts, pull pins, and feednecks are all easy to get and cheap. The noids aren't necessarily. It's totally not related, but LEDs/LCDs also seem like they were anno'ed with a sharpie, so expect it to have some scuff marks. I never see old Angels anymore, and really, they're good shooters you can get cheaply. It also can keep up with pretty much anything on the field with the current rules too.

Autocockers are fun, to tinker with and great if you prefer wrenches to soldiering irons. The parts are cheap, all over the place, and there's a ton ways to go. They're also really easy to do pump/mech/slider/swing in terms of versatility.

Both options are fun. I'm guessing you'll be happy either way.
__________________
My feedback:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html

Need a Centerflag Uprising manual? PM me.

My Shooters
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/c...ml#post3081978
cfos00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 01:13 AM   #35 (permalink)
Seasoned Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Rice Lake, WI

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfos00 View Post
We could turn this into a mechanical pissing contest, but that's running the thread completely off topic for the OP.
Please go right ahead
aresfiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 04:34 AM   #36 (permalink)
Not Worthy Of "MCBer"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper View Post
the first question should be regulated or non-regulated and work backwards from there.

non-regulated (600-1000psi) = mags or pre-2k cockers with stock high pressure low volume valves, small air chambers, and any old internals.

regulated (300-400psi) = 2K+ cockers w/ internals that are low pressure high volume friendly. (grossly over-generalized)... and a decent reg designed for the task.

e.g., start with an operating pressure and build to that pressure. cocker internals were made to work at a fairly specific* operating pressure. Pick a pressure and work backwards. *(again over-generalized)
Sounds like 2 functional body types and 2 functional valve types then.

Somewhat... underwhelming.

Probably too much to ask for criteria to be applied evenly.
__________________
Quote:
He posts videos of himself on Youtube never leaving the furthest back bunker.
Even when playing against rental noobs, he is immobilized.
Logic and reason are anathema to him; but this does not deter him from prattling on.
He is the most interesting player in the world.
GoatBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 09:27 PM   #37 (permalink)
Midget Enthusiast
 
cfos00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Washington, DC
Send a message via AIM to cfos00

Yeah, I got this...

It all can be boiled down to a simple quote: Necessity is the mother of invention.

Good tinkering markers are those that are either over-engineered (don't mistake this for me saying it's a bad thing), have poor quality control, or both. The most popular tinkering guns, Autocockers and Ions, at one point or another fit these categories. So let's look at making a cocker versus a mag on a couple hundred bucks here, and see options, and what makes a difference. Basically, it takes the high end off of both markets, and the custom parts runs out. Seems along the lines of what the OP mentioned. And you can't go valve for valve and body for body. For a mag, the valve is the gun. For the cocker, it's a very small part of the chain reaction.

Automag:
Drive Trains (everything involved with the firing cycle):
Classic valve: stock or you could put a RT on/off in, level 7 or level X bolt, if you want to swap something for the sake of swapping something, you can toss a hurricane reg or an Air America reg on the back.
Retrovalve: ULT or stock RT on/off, level X of level 7 bolt. Pretty much covers it.
Trigger frames: Stock Carbon fiber, CF with a double trigger, Centerflag frame, Intelliframe, Aluminum AGD frame if you can find one, Benchmark (single or double), Dye
Rails: Stock, Benchmark, RT, ANS, covers most of it
Bodies: Gray/Black automag/minimag/straight right feeds

That's pretty much what you're looking at here. Decent amount of options, but not really all that much different than most average guns. The biggest differences will be RT versus Classic, level 7 versus level X, carbon frame versus Intelli, and rail length. Also, pick a grip frame. Most of the aftermarket parts made for a mag show no improvement over AGD parts. Shows the initial quality of the marker, which is a good thing.

Same thing, now with the cocker:
Valve: Several options here, including Rocket, Rat, Tornado, CCM, ANS, stock, Macdev, stock springs, maddman springs, valve specific springs, PE---these can easily effect your efficiency and sound signature
Hammer: stock, slotted, Phat, Sleeved, Tungsten (terrible idea), CCM, PE, rounded lug, square lug, and again with the springs, can effect your cocking pressure, smoothness of the pull, and release point (lug)
Three way: CT, Orracle, brass stock, STO, bomb, dye, ANS, PE, KAPP, etc, CCM, Palmers, Psychoballistics (terrible again), these all can have an effect on trigger pull length and ease of adjustment, and color matching
Rams: Stock, ST, ANS, Palmers, PE, MP4, STO, CCM, Clippard, etc, big differences here are based on smoothness in feel, speed, and rebuildability. Lot of them won't have a big difference, but a few really do stand out in feel, speed, look, and ability to color match
LPR: Sledgehammer, Jackhammers, PE, CT, Oracle, Rock, Extreme Rage (again crap), twister cap, AKA, knob or no knob, tons of them out there, again color matching possible, size, and no knob are really your choices
Frame: Swing- single, double, tons of brands with different feels to many of them, slider- again, many options here with different sizes and shapes, adjustability, and color
Electro: Centerflag, Worrframe, possibly E1s on the cheap, possibly .24 boards on the cheap too
Pump rods: Color, TI, SS, straight, bent, differ by body type
Bolts: Lots of brands, only jams really seem to make much difference, halfblock/midblock/full length
Sear: Ball bearing for smoothness or stock
Body Style: tons milling styles here, can get multiple colors, feed styles, lengths, halfblocked used for well under a hundred, also can decide on banjo bolts/LPCs here, and style of sled/backblock
Barrels: industry standard and by far the most options around
Regs: Any on the market

A lot more parts equals a whole lot more in terms of options. It's really that simple. They also had a great track record of allowing companies improve on their designs, which was a train wreck when they came out, which in turn allowed for a ton of noticably improved parts and more to tinker with. Parts that do allow for adjustment to the style or feel that you're going for, from cheap electro to snappy slider to smooth slider to swing on the same marker, and allow for colors beyond gray/black/polished. Autocockers just have a lot more to work with, and more options. It's hard to argue that they aren't over-engineered to push a ball down a tube, and their quality control flat out sucked for years. It forced the aftermarket to be created, and their to be a huge competition which allow for parts to be made on the cheap. It also allowed for a LOT more versatility in the platform on without resorting to private runs or high end parts. In short, you can tinker like crazy with parts that all effect how the whole thing will feel in the end, and not spend a ton on it.

Automags are pretty simple guns at their core, well engineered stock, and don't have a ton of moving parts. They aren't over-engineered, and the quality control wasn't an issue. There just wasn't a large amount of space for improvement, and very little that AGD didn't come up with themselves. There's not much to tinker with unless you're doing a high end build starting at a few hundred bucks if you have an X valve involved or you want to mess with around within a frame because what AGD put out there to start with so well thought out. Just not a lot to tinker with for you.

I love both platforms, and both can be really versatile if you want to work at it. You can literally make both guns slider/swing/EP/electro/pneumatic/pump. Mags are just more expensive and complicated if you want to expand on their basic platform. Cockers are better for tinkering because they're just more to them, more to play around with, most for you to fix, and allow for more options on the cheap. Over-engineering at its best.

Ok, so there's my argument for you. And mags are faster :-)
__________________
My feedback:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html

Need a Centerflag Uprising manual? PM me.

My Shooters
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/c...ml#post3081978
cfos00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  mcarterbrown.com » Paintball » The Dead Zone

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO
© MCB Network LLC