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Old 11-13-2012, 04:15 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by martix_agent View Post
magnets? How do they work?!
magic
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:03 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HP_Lovecraft View Post
Who knows if BL simply ripped off the existing Defiant design, and shoved it into the Millenium bodies?
-While I'm sure there was some inspiration, for want of a better term, the Intimidator's "rammer" layout is significantly different than the Bushmaster/Defiant's Angel-style cartridge ram.

It's always been my opinion- I have no idea how true it is- that the rammer came about because the Millennium (thanks, couldn't remember the name) bodies had already been milled for the sear slots, and so couldn't use a Bushy-style cartridge ram. They had to design something that could make the bodies work- thus, the rammer and sleeve arrangement.

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A good example is the Palmer blazer. It had a very long development of 4 years. The reason was that Palmer was having Sterling UK do all the research, development, prototyping, testing, and eventual building. In exchange, Palmer was going to help Sterling UK develop an autococking kit for the stelring that that could sell as an upgrade kit.
-Interesting. I'd heard that Palmer had been involved, in some way, with trying to help Sterling automate the, er, Sterling, but this is the first I'd heard that Sterling was in some way involved with making the Blazer.

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Paintball is a tough business sometimes.
-Yep. "Capless" 10-round tube packs? I invented those back in 2002, and was selling production versions by 2003. (And I have the receipts from the shop that produced them for me to prove it. )

No, I had no patent or trademark on the idea, and probably wouldn't have gotten one if I could, but it's still interesting to see places like Ronin and McCann doing so well with the idea.

Doc.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:14 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Well for what it's worth, thanks a ton Doc, I love my capless harnesses!! That's all I've used for years for 10 round tubes, I've gone though three of them just wearing them out from so many hours of use
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:30 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
I think stating that the twist-lock system was well and firmly established in answering a question as to why it didn’t catch on is kind of a contradiction.
-I think we're misunderstanding each other.

While there was no widespread acceptance of the twist-lock barrel style (meaning no other manufacturer was using it) AGD themselves had pretty well invested in it by the time anti-chop eyes hit the scene.

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I’d bet they would have happily continued using the twist lock if the main drawback was indeed just pain of manufacturing. (Not saying “pain of manufacturing” doesn’t make a difference; I’m just saying that AGD didn’t seem like the type to care about such things.)
-Actually, one of the things that started off AGD was their then-cutting-edge automated production equipment. Kaye, as I recall, started out making vacuum-formed face masks out of a plastic much like Kydex. (If not, you know, actually Kydex.) They then used a computerized 3-D router/mill that they had designed and built, to trim the raw mask blank down to size and open the eye holes.

AGD was using top-end CNC equipment back when Smart Parts was still using a drill press.

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a twist lock barrel might be a pain to make, but the body itself is probably made easier.
-That's exactly right. AGD was using stainless tubing for their bodies- all they had to do was furnace braze on a second piece of tubing for a feed neck, a collar inside for the bolt spring to bear against, and a small plate for the front grip-frame screw.

If they'd wanted to go with a threaded barrel, they'd have had to make a threaded "sleeve" to fit into the body- that's a greater cost and more machine time.

Point in fact, the first generation 'Mags, the so-called "Level 5" guns, had exactly that. The actual breech and feed port was part of the body, while the twist-lock barrel was just from the locking pin forward.

Making it to the current "Level 7" version with the breech in the barrel, meant that it was easier to clean out a chamber break (where the 'Mag rather habitually chopped) and the part that had to be brazed into the body went from a fairly significant machined breech unit, to a simple, thin ring.

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Old 11-13-2012, 05:49 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
Best barrel system IMO is what Palmer did with the Blazer.
I prefer what Mokal did with the Mirage.

Excellent thread, great to see so much history from Doc!

I'm disappointed that there aren't more centerfeed twist lock barrels... I'm stuck with my stock sydarm barrel. It's alright, but sometimes it's like throwing a hot dog down a hallway :P
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:03 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I'm disappointed that there aren't more centerfeed twist lock barrels... I'm stuck with my stock sydarm barrel. It's alright, but sometimes it's like throwing a hot dog down a hallway :P
-If I may be allowed a shameless plug, I've been making Automag barrel adapters for several years now- and yes, they fit centerfeed twist-lock, including the Sydarm.

The page shows they're out of stock, but I'm just finishing up a fresh batch. They should be posted Thursday or Friday.

I also have another Sydarm barrel option in the works that I think will be really cool, but it's still in development.

Doc.
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:11 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
-If I may be allowed a shameless plug, I've been making Automag barrel adapters for several years now- and yes, they fit centerfeed twist-lock, including the Sydarm.

The page shows they're out of stock, but I'm just finishing up a fresh batch. They should be posted Thursday or Friday.

I also have another Sydarm barrel option in the works that I think will be really cool, but it's still in development.

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Old 11-13-2012, 07:23 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Nah, I wasn't arguing it or anything, just stating my opinion of the idea based on years of product design, engineering and manufacturing experience. I don't think there is any merit to a magnetically retained barrel design.
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
But it uses MAGNETS
I KNOW, right?

Besides, the O-rings would share the work with the magnets. One thing I noticed when I got an Empire Barrel was the barrel NEVER loosened. The stock barrel did - the difference was an O-ring.

What one would be looking for is a barrel that comes of pretty easily (some resistance, but not massive) without the magnets in place, but will not slide straight out with the magnets in place. I mean a 6mm rare earth magnet has just under 2 lbs of pull strength - not shabby for $0.41.

The advantage comes from not having to cut precise threads onto the barrel - you cut a couple of O-ring grooves (pretty close, but no need for perfection) and drill and tap a hole to take the magnet block.

AND, if yer really slick, the magnet in the gun frame can replace the spring in the ball detent.

A fun mental exercise, at the very least.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:40 PM   #59 (permalink)
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those "precise" threads on the barrel are EXTREMELY cheap to make. Most barrels nowadays are finished on a single machine, porting and all... fine threads take only a few seconds to cut, and since it's aluminum, the cutting tool lasts a long time and the thread size is easily maintained. It takes much more work to attach a magnet somehow, and have some way for it to fit into the body, and then there's a second magnet, and.... that's where us experienced design guys bail out and toss the idea off the table, because there is too much added complexity and cost for no startling performance gains. Magnets may have had some success in hyped up accessories, but building a whole gun around magnetic barrel retention, and expecting it to work out well for aftermarket barrels? hell no.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:20 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Okay - then bail. It's not like I'm asking you to build one.

As I said, it's a fun mental exercise. Not so much "Would it work" but "Could it work".

But if it's so cheap, quick, and easy to do, why can't I order a barrel in whatever thread I want? I mean, there are cool old guns out there. And paintballs are shrinking, making their barrels less-than-optimal. Why not hold a few barrels out as blanks and drop them in the CNC when an order comes in. Charge a little less for the service than most airsmith's charge to re-thread and make a little extra coin. Perhaps not something a high-rate producer can do - probably a smaller barrel maker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
...that's where us experienced design guys bail out and toss the idea off the table, because there is too much added complexity and cost for no startling performance gains.
I mean we do live in a world where people pay $350+ for a PGP clone or $700+ for a nelspot 007 clone- why not pay a little extra for a nice barrel that fits your cool old gun?
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