mcarterbrown.com  

The Dead Zone Paintball Related Chat

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-13-2012, 12:18 PM   #21 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by P0E View Post
Why would anyone think a group of tenuous theories is more informative than a poorly performed empirical test which results in a limited data set? That's all I said.
because the data sets have multiple variables. they can be more detrimental than mere ideas because they can be misleading and also be misread. look how the guy jumps to conclusions all the time when talking about his own data. you gotta stay unbiased if you want to do things right and he's long since went off that road. when you have an idea you naturally want to see evidence that supports it. that's fine when the test singles out just your idea, but what happens when the test has multiple factors is the reader who likes one variable brushes off the other variables, even though they are just as big a factor as the one the reader likes. the end result is the inconclusive test ends up making you even more biased than before you read it. you end up being like that guy.

Last edited by heinous; 11-13-2012 at 12:25 PM.
heinous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 03:15 PM   #22 (permalink)
Tigerstyle
 
Ramous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Bartlett,Illinois

Brass N Wood Fan
Palmers Fan
What about this factor... if your sticking out of your bunker spraying a lane at whatever BPS you want, what are the chances an experienced stock class player can put 1 ball on you with a snap shot on you before you noticed he even shot?

A lot higher I bet.
__________________
"Conformities are called for much more eagerly today than yesterday... skeptics, liberals, individuals with a taste for private life and their own inner standards of behavior, are objects of fear and derision and targets of persecution for either side... in the great ideological wars of our time."- Isaiah Berlin

"Freedom is not something that can be given. Freedom is something people take, and people are as free as they want to be."- James Baldwin
Ramous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 04:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
MCB Member
 
tjd10684's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Beaver Falls PA (outside Pittsburgh)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramous View Post
What about this factor... if your sticking out of your bunker spraying a lane at whatever BPS you want, what are the chances an experienced stock class player can put 1 ball on you with a snap shot on you before you noticed he even shot?

A lot higher I bet.
Ya know what's even worse when you start to get good with both. When you can gun battle like a pumper and put volume down field like an air baller now you're getting scarry on the field.
__________________
My Feedback - http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...ml#post1575817

I also freak bore
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...ml#post2393405

A wise man once said:
"The gap between theory and reality is not as far in theory as it is in reality."
tjd10684 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 07:39 AM   #24 (permalink)
Active Member
 
Join Date: May 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Super Beasto View Post
Don't check out techpb for anything.
This.
__________________
SPEEDBALL DEFENDER!

EMPIRE AXE - REDLINE OLED
LURKER EIGENBARREL - EIGENBOSS BOLT
CRITICAL AXIOM TRIGGER - NANO FEEDNECK
EMPIRE Z2 - NINJA 50/4500
SNAKESNIPER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 10:31 AM   #25 (permalink)
P0E
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: P0E

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinous View Post
because the data sets have multiple variables. they can be more detrimental than mere ideas because they can be misleading and also be misread. look how the guy jumps to conclusions all the time when talking about his own data. you gotta stay unbiased if you want to do things right and he's long since went off that road. when you have an idea you naturally want to see evidence that supports it. that's fine when the test singles out just your idea, but what happens when the test has multiple factors is the reader who likes one variable brushes off the other variables, even though they are just as big a factor as the one the reader likes. the end result is the inconclusive test ends up making you even more biased than before you read it. you end up being like that guy.
Just because Cockerpunk jumps to conclusions doesn't mean we're all equally weak.

I see the test for what it is; Various people running through lanes fired from 100' away at several ball rates with only hits being collected or even considered. The results show no trend. Which is understandable considering the sample size is small enough to place data squarely in 'the noise'.

Surely that paragraph didn't force your brain to become biased?

I understand your frustration with Punkworks though. Their tests give them an aura of unimpeachable authority and unapproachable, albeit undeserved, credibility in the minds of the mindless masses.

Sucks that the only counter is to perform tests yourself.... and that's like lots of work compared to making forum posts. amiright?
P0E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 10:54 AM   #26 (permalink)
MCB Member
 
Spider!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Houston, TX

Quote:
Originally Posted by P0E View Post
Sucks that the only counter is to perform tests yourself.... and that's like lots of work compared to making forum posts. amiright?
It's kind of like Mythbusters. It's fun and informative to watch the experiments, but often some basic calculations would tell you that the idea is feasible or not within the assumptions.

Just because you can show mathematically that 15 bps has a better hit probability than 12 bps doesn't make the statement worthless (well, to some people).

The actual calculation of some linear spread of paint and the width of a two dimensional target that can fit between them at some rate of travel may not give you the answer to life, the universe and everything, but it will tell you what the limit of the situation is. From there, you can start throwing in variations and throwing out assumptions.

It's like the total energy stored in a 45/4500 tank. Any shot count over about 30 something % efficiency is all magic and unicorns.
__________________
My Feedback
Spider! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 11:27 AM   #27 (permalink)
Seasoned Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinous View Post
you wouldn't say that after you fully understand how a proper experiment should be done and what can make or break it. that link's broken, but the tests that i've seen and asked him about, he couldn't even afford to have all the control runs. tests are useless if it can't rule out every other likely factors. not that it's his fault for being low on money, but the end result remains the same: that his tests have become pointless.



I've seen this before, I want the math behind it :[ I know someone did the math on it! Like to have it and read up on it haha.
Slipknot666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 12:05 PM   #28 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by P0E View Post
Just because Cockerpunk jumps to conclusions doesn't mean we're all equally weak.

Sucks that the only counter is to perform tests yourself.... and that's like lots of work compared to making forum posts. amiright?
yeah, but who do you think cockerpunk's experiments are meant for, and how weak do you think they are? it's the same tards who've bought every marketing gimmick this industry has dished out the past 2 decades, some of them even let their minds fool themselves into thinking those things actually work because they spent money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider! View Post
It's kind of like Mythbusters. It's fun and informative to watch the experiments, but often some basic calculations would tell you that the idea is feasible or not within the assumptions.
thanks, that's basically exactly what i wanted to say.

i even saw their experiment on "can a plane take off on a tarp moving in the opposite direction" and remember that's actually a question from my HIGH SCHOOL physics class. guess what, we figured it out even as kids.

as an example, you wouldn't need to actually perform the tests yourself to realize all guns without backspin or first strike shoot at the same range when chrono'd the same either, and that's not even much more effort than making a forum post. it's basic math, basic physics that once again is available to everyone who chooses to take that class in high school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipknot666 View Post
I've seen this before, I want the math behind it :[ I know someone did the math on it! Like to have it and read up on it haha.
i don't even remember what it was about, just that he was so sure of the results even though he acknowledges the multiple variables.

Last edited by heinous; 11-14-2012 at 12:10 PM.
heinous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 12:12 PM   #29 (permalink)
uncanny
 
paintballedbackin88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Los Angeles

AKA Fan
In other words, we're back to 42
__________________
"A good reputation is more valuable than costly perfume. And the day you die is better than the day you are born." Ecclesiastes 7:1

mcb feedback
Customcockers.com feedback
Mostly mechanical autocockers
paintballedbackin88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 01:47 PM   #30 (permalink)
P0E
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: P0E

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinous View Post
yeah, but who do you think cockerpunk's experiments are meant for, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by P0E View Post
Just because Cockerpunk jumps to conclusions doesn't mean we're all equally weak.
...
I understand your frustration with Punkworks though. Their tests give them an aura of unimpeachable authority and unapproachable, albeit undeserved, credibility in the minds of the mindless masses.

Sucks that the only counter is to perform tests yourself.... and that's like lots of work compared to making forum posts. amiright?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider! View Post
It's kind of like Mythbusters. It's fun and informative to watch the experiments, but often some basic calculations would tell you that the idea is feasible or not within the assumptions.
Exactly like the test itself, the usefulness of those basic calculations depend entirely on the assumptions. Basic calculations with incomplete assumptions are used just as often as faulty tests to reinforce preconceived theories. Hell, just look at political statistics.

I like tests because they can lead to discovery even when performed poorly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinous View Post
...
as an example, you wouldn't need to actually perform the tests yourself to realize all guns without backspin or first strike shoot at the same range when chrono'd the same either, and that's not even much more effort than making a forum post. it's basic math, basic physics that once again is available to everyone who chooses to take that class in high school.
Funny you mentioned this test. Sometime in the 90s, Cocker owners were claiming they shot farther. I explained why that was 'mathematically' impossible with some basic calculations. One guy was adamant so I setup a test with our markers.

To my surprise, I discovered the results not only didn't match my range calculations, but the Cocker DID shoot measurably farther!

The problem was that I assumed all paint had relatively equal mass. Turns out this error range can be significant and Cocker players typically had more money and purchased the higher quality (heavier due to fill composition and fill percentage) paint.

They were in-fact shooting farther, but not because of their assumption (gun).

Last edited by P0E; 11-14-2012 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Elaborated on why balls were heavier.
P0E is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  mcarterbrown.com » Paintball » The Dead Zone

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO
© MCB Network LLC