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Old 11-25-2012, 07:50 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
Sell a service or experience (playing) not a product (paint).
Paint is still going to make more money. We give them a $10 discount if they are playing a tournament usually.

We already do:

OSC (limited paint tournament with pump guns)
Woodsball tournaments
Beginners tournamets
Customer appreciation day (free rentals and entry)
Fall Pump Event
A Vicious tournament



I did pitch it to the field owner today and kinda explained that there really isn't an in between step for people to get into tournaments. And he kinda liked the idea that you guys are coming up with. But he did agree that the more restrictions you put on it, the less participation you'll see.

So I'm thinking cyclones are allowed, as well as cockers, mags, mech Ions (GOG eNMEy). Just no RT or pneu guns, but since its more than just blowbacks, we could do gravity fed hoppers for everyone.
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:13 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ta2maki
So what happens when a guy shows up with a pneumatic spyder? Its not too hard to actuate a blowback trigger with a ram the same way you do with a mag(or cocker). I think some of you are underestimating blowback performance.

Take a vm-68, add a long feedstack and pneumatic trigger, and mill down the body. You have a gun that is way fast and does not need to be shaken to feed(self agitating)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post
That guy plays. He spent a LOT of money to have an advantage over a $60 Spyder or $80 Gryphon - but it meets the criteria. I could further restrict the rules of said event, but part of the idea is to have "Simple Rules". There have always been, and shall always be guys who will attempt to buy first place.

As with all machines you have access to affordability, performance, and reliability - you normally get to pick only two of those. The example above probably has Performance and reliability. But it also shows off the actual abilities of a "Piece of Junk Blow-Back" - which may not be all bad.
I would STRONGLY recommend you disallow such a device under the "spirit of the game" rule. This is supposed to be a catch all rule to prevent this type of thing. Use it.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:31 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Ok. I can see not wanting the pneu-vm. But that raises two more issues :
1: How to word the rules to reflect this
2: Where to draw the limit on modifications.
barrels - okay
Polished bolt/hammer - of course
Lightened trigger - yup
Pneumatic trigger - nope. Dang! I totally brain farted on that one.

Keep finding points where I'm off course. If you can make your point, I can flex.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:11 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post
Similar to the reasons given for playing pump or stock. It's fun, and a different kind of play.


Not completely, but in part. I actually played BB along side (and against) Typhoons, autocockers, and mags prior to the common use of agitator hoppers. All three had performance that was clearly superior to that of any blow-back then available. Blow-backs have advanced, true, but so has everything else.


It is about a common platform, accessibility, and providing a path to more intense tournaments. It is analogous to F-1000 racing where equipment is largely taken out of the equation - the best (or luckiest) driver wins, not the team that spent the most money (as is often the case in Formula 1).

[... Hmmm... Forumla 68?... innnterestinggg.... ]

Skill and talent are certainly part of the formula, but so is access to the equipment by those unable or unwilling to slap down $500 for a tourney pump or $1,000+ for a tourney electro.


The guy with the mag or 'cocker would have to borrow a Blow-back. I would not bring my primary gun to this event and expect to play. Fortunately, most fields rent Blow-Backs, so the 'cocker/mag owner can probably rent a marker for the day.


I would not say you are missing the point, but perhaps not seeing all of it.
Yes, it is about skill, ability, and talent.
Yes, it is about easy access to equipment (buy/borrow/fix/rent) Less than the cost of a case of paint gets you a new gun, tank, and hopper.
It is also about providing a path to other forms of tournament play. If interested, turn left for pump/stock play, turn right for electro play. A "gateway drug" to awaken the competitor in those who are new to the sport or have shunned tournament play as too expensive and too "hard core".


What is to keep a guy from buying a top-end mag/cocker and entering it against guys playing with $60 Spyders? You are talking "Mech-class", which is similar to "Open Class Pump". I'm talking "Blow-Back-Mech Class", which is analogous to "Stock Class". What you are talking about is cool, and I would even play, but Blow-Back Cup is something a little different. It's "Blue-Collar" paintball. It's taking most of the equipment differences out of the equation. It's getting rid of "No fair, those guys were all using Blazers". It is also keeping the price point low enough for "Joe Six-pack.

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Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
Sure we are. You don't want to use a blowback.

What's the matter, too good to use one? Do you think you're "better" than a blowback?

Why "limit" people to a blowback? Heck, why not? If you think it's a limitation than that's entirely the point. Limit everyone the same.
So what I understand is that someone with an older, say 2004 and older, Autococker, mechanical, and not a private label, or a Trilogy, or an older Level 5 or 7 AutoMag or MiniMag, or a Palmers Typhoon, or a Blazer is at an advantage, maybe even severely so, to someone with a Tippmann 98, or just about any non-electro Spyder? Am I seriously being led to believe that?

As it is right now, if I were to play in one of these tourney's, and my wife played as well, we would have to go and buy something fo each of us. Her Blazer and my Typhoon, Nightmare SB, KP3, MicroMag, or either Cocker (Big Daddy Cocker or AKA Revenge prototype) would be too high end, or something of the like. Never mind that my wife's Blazer is around the first, or second year made, as well as my Typhoon having a low number.

Seriously, I just don't see much of a performance difference between a Spyder or a Tippmann, and these others that I mentioned. Other than the Mags needing larger tanks, or more frequent fills...
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:16 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Easiest way would probably be that entry gets you your 200 round gravity hopper and that's what your gun has to use, past that the only restriction is no batteries. ACT RTs, pneu triggers, lvl 10, would all be allowed with any barrel, the gravity feed hopper is the great equalizer. No cyclones, stick feeds, or Qloaders.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:04 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
So what I understand is that someone with an older, say 2004 and older, Autococker, mechanical, and not a private label, or a Trilogy, or an older Level 5 or 7 AutoMag or MiniMag, or a Palmers Typhoon, or a Blazer is at an advantage, maybe even severely so, to someone with a Tippmann 98, or just about any non-electro Spyder? Am I seriously being led to believe that?
No. You are being told that you can't use any paintball gun that is not a blow-back, semi auto. That means you can't use your auto-cocker of any vintage, Blazer, Typhoon, Sterling, Level whatever Automag, Desert Fox, Ion set to Billy Mode, eNMEy, Sniper, Trracer, or Grey Ghost. I mean let's be honest. "Billy Mode" is something like 1/2 to 1 bps on an electro. Well HECK, why not let them compete in Pump class. Pumps with A/T's shoot MUCH faster than this. Heck, STOCK class can match this cyclic rate. Why not let a kid with an Ion set to "Billy" compete in Stock class? Or how about all those old pumps with auto-cocker pneumatics? You still have to "Pump" them (even if the pneumatics cycle the bolt and hammer) - are they allowed in stock or pump class?

Would you allow this in "Open Pump" class? We'll just say gravity-feed, hopper-ball only and that will make everything equal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
As it is right now, if I were to play in one of these tourney's, and my wife played as well, we would have to go and buy something fo each of us. Her Blazer and my Typhoon, Nightmare SB, KP3, MicroMag, or either Cocker (Big Daddy Cocker or AKA Revenge prototype) would be too high end, or something of the like. Never mind that my wife's Blazer is around the first, or second year made, as well as my Typhoon having a low number.
Hate your bad luck. They are not Blow-Backs. You may be able to borrow or rent a Blow-Back at a local field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
Seriously, I just don't see much of a performance difference between a Spyder or a Tippmann, and these others that I mentioned. Other than the Mags needing larger tanks, or more frequent fills...
If there is no difference, why spend $400 for a Blazer or $700 for a Typhoon when they are no better than an $70 Gryphon or a $60 Spyder? Am I being led to believe that the difference between a $70 Gryphon and a $900 Blazer 2KL is a $100 hopper? Really?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryjjackson69 View Post
Easiest way would probably be that entry gets you your 200 round gravity hopper and that's what your gun has to use, past that the only restriction is no batteries. ACT RTs, pneu triggers, lvl 10, would all be allowed with any barrel, the gravity feed hopper is the great equalizer. No cyclones, stick feeds, or Qloaders.
That is one of many solutions.

Everyone always stops at Mechs. Any mech gun is the same as any other mech gun as long as both have the same $5.00 standard hopper, right? But what about my Ion or eNVy? Why not just allow them set to "Billy" or "Semi" with a standard hopper?
No Cyclones? But I love my A5 - and it's a blow-back!
No Stick Feed? But it's only 20 balls - those other guys get 200!
No Q-loaders? But mine is old, and does not feed all that fast anymore.

How about this...
"Yeah, I have an awesome gun with a freaky-fast hopper, but I really suck at paintball, and that makes everything equal, right? So I should be allowed to play in this class."

C'mon guys...
Gun: .68 caliber, Semi-Automatic Paintball gun, Blow-back operated. No R/T, P/T, or E/T allowed. One shot per trigger cycle.
Hopper: Standard, non-agitating, gravity feed, 200 rnd max.
Air: N2, HPA, or CO2 - no volume limit.
Barrel: Bring what'cha got.
Paint: Provided by field on day of tournament. 200 balls per player per game maximum. No sharing between players during game.

I think that's like Revision 5 or 6, but the core is the same.


Someone mentioned the "Spyder Cup". Well, guess what; no 'cockers, blazers, mags, or foxes in that either. In fact, no Model 98's, Piranhas, VM-68's, or even PGP's in that one... It's not Kingman's fault that Bud Orr never had the "Cocker Cup" (ewh...), or that Tom Kaye never had the "Mag Cup".

Now, there does seem to be a great deal of interest in a "Gravity-fed, Hopper-ball Series". Sounds fun, but not why I started this thread. If this is what you would like, start a new thread for that topic. It may be that you are more successful than I am, in which case "Good on ya". I'll bring my 'Fox and let you shoot me
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Last edited by ironnerd88; 11-26-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:57 AM   #97 (permalink)
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I like the whole Idea, I've got an old VM68 I want to dust off.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:17 AM   #98 (permalink)
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I think that I have been clear that I think you are aiming for too small of a niche.

That being said the tournament is really aimed at those who just got a neat new blow back and want to test it out in a tournament setting. The guys on MCB who have been collecting and playing for as long as some of these kids have been alive are not really the target audience. I would guess you are welcome to play but the rules are not going to be modified just to allow it.

That being said that does create a new problem. My guess is that the vast majority of blow backs sold today are sold in Wal-Mart, online, or away from the field. Advertising to your primary niche might be problematic. Getting turn-out could be an issue
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:10 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
I think that I have been clear that I think you are aiming for too small of a niche.
You may be correct, but it is easier loosen the rules than it is to tighten them (far less whining). And there is room for negotiation, I can give a little hear or there.

And, heck - There is the possibility of the "Mecha League" with two classes: "Blow-Back" for Basic Blow-Backs, and "Open" with any non-electro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
That being said the tournament is really aimed at those who just got a neat new blow back and want to test it out in a tournament setting.
Agreed, it is aimed at those guys AND these guys:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses688 View Post
I like the whole Idea, I've got an old VM68 I want to dust off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendal50 View Post
This sounds like fun! I love shooting a well tuned mech Spyder. I wouldn't put a price cap on the guns themselves, as long as everyone's shooting mechanical blowbacks with a gravity fed non-agitated 200rnd hopper. That way someone can still bring a custom annodized/rare marker as long as it's still blowback.
Back to Lohman's point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
The guys on MCB who have been collecting and playing for as long as some of these kids have been alive are not really the target audience. I would guess you are welcome to play but the rules are not going to be modified just to allow it.
Excellent point - but you guys are less likely to see really bad rules and say "AWESOME! Where do I sign up?" You are (and have been) far better at pointing out stuff that I would not think of. No need to put out bad rules for a fun idea. Work on decent rules, test, tweak, test and repeat.

Tell ya what I'll do for you'se guys. Once I get my HPA tank back from the SCUBA shop (Paintball tank? Is it...full of paint?) I'll load up the 'Fox and T-cat with a standard hopper and see if there is any difference just off the back porch. My suspicion is that the T-cat will actually feed better (the Fox is smoother and thus has less "Self Agitation" than the T-cat) - but I'll test it out and see what happens. Anybody else with two kinds of guns is welcome to give the same test a go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
That being said that does create a new problem. My guess is that the vast majority of blow backs sold today are sold in Wal-Mart, online, or away from the field. Advertising to your primary niche might be problematic. Getting turn-out could be an issue
Agreed. Interestingly, none of my Wal-Marts sell Paintball stuff anymore, most of it is being replaced by Airsoft. Be that as it may, these kids have got to play somewhere. Refs and techs can easily spot a blow-back, they may want to pass the word. If by some miracle these kids actually fill out the warranty card, the manufacturer of the gun could have a pop-up mentioning that the gun is "Whatever Cup" Certified. Kind of a "Grass Roots" paintball movement. Similar to Stock or Pump (but with more guns and fewer rabid fanatics).

And as I said, worst case scenario; I play more paintball. MAYBE incorporate so I can write off my paintball costs on my taxes
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:08 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
So what I understand is that someone with an older, say 2004 and older, Autococker, mechanical, and not a private label, or a Trilogy, or an older Level 5 or 7 AutoMag or MiniMag, or a Palmers Typhoon, or a Blazer is at an advantage, maybe even severely so, to someone with a Tippmann 98, or just about any non-electro Spyder? Am I seriously being led to believe that?

As it is right now, if I were to play in one of these tourney's, and my wife played as well, we would have to go and buy something fo each of us. Her Blazer and my Typhoon, Nightmare SB, KP3, MicroMag, or either Cocker (Big Daddy Cocker or AKA Revenge prototype) would be too high end, or something of the like. Never mind that my wife's Blazer is around the first, or second year made, as well as my Typhoon having a low number.

Seriously, I just don't see much of a performance difference between a Spyder or a Tippmann, and these others that I mentioned. Other than the Mags needing larger tanks, or more frequent fills...
Why are you so stuck on high end or low end, or having operating systems excluded? It like complaining how you can't race your vintage Ferrari in a Mustang spec race and you have to buy a Ford. An old Ferrari isn't going to have a performance advantage, but still is not allowed.
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