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Old 11-26-2012, 02:22 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post
No. You are being told that you can't use any paintball gun that is not a blow-back, semi auto. That means you can't use your auto-cocker of any vintage, Blazer, Typhoon, Sterling, Level whatever Automag, Desert Fox, Ion set to Billy Mode, eNMEy, Sniper, Trracer, or Grey Ghost. I mean let's be honest. "Billy Mode" is something like 1/2 to 1 bps on an electro. Well HECK, why not let them compete in Pump class. Pumps with A/T's shoot MUCH faster than this. Heck, STOCK class can match this cyclic rate. Why not let a kid with an Ion set to "Billy" compete in Stock class? Or how about all those old pumps with auto-cocker pneumatics? You still have to "Pump" them (even if the pneumatics cycle the bolt and hammer) - are they allowed in stock or pump class?

Would you allow this in "Open Pump" class? We'll just say gravity-feed, hopper-ball only and that will make everything equal.
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Hate your bad luck. They are not Blow-Backs. You may be able to borrow or rent a Blow-Back at a local field.


If there is no difference, why spend $400 for a Blazer or $700 for a Typhoon when they are no better than an $70 Gryphon or a $60 Spyder? Am I being led to believe that the difference between a $70 Gryphon and a $900 Blazer 2KL is a $100 hopper? Really?



Everyone always stops at Mechs. Any mech gun is the same as any other mech gun as long as both have the same $5.00 standard hopper, right? But what about my Ion or eNVy? Why not just allow them set to "Billy" or "Semi" with a standard hopper?


Someone mentioned the "Spyder Cup". Well, guess what; no 'cockers, blazers, mags, or foxes in that either. In fact, no Model 98's, Piranhas, VM-68's, or even PGP's in that one... It's not Kingman's fault that Bud Orr never had the "Cocker Cup" (ewh...), or that Tom Kaye never had the "Mag Cup".
I have to agree with Lohman446, in that we are not your target audience. You want the kids or adults who just got into this, we certainly are far from that audience. Even the newest person to paintball, on this board, is not your target audience.

Now, in regards to your questions, I would allow a person with a pneumatic operation system play in a mech tourney, because it is still a mech. But an Ion isn't, even if Billy mode is only one ball per two seconds. It isn't a mech. But why not allow an eNMy? It is a mech marker. Oh but wait, it isn't a blowback, so it is better than a Spyder or a Tippmann. Honestly, that is what you are saying. That a Cocker, Mag, or anything else is better than a Spyder, Tippmann, or any of their clones.

BTW, have you shot the Phantom Revolution? Or whatever it is called? You know, a semi that you have to pump to feed paint into the chamber? If the NPPL, or PSP, or whoever allows that as a pump, does that mean that they are not purist enough? You can pull the trigger semi-auto, but it won't fire a paintball without you pumping it to drop one in place.


Honestly, I didn't spend more than $150 on my wife's Blazer, my Typhoon, or my Super Stocker. I'm not saying that anyone who spends $400-700 on new Palmers stuff is stupid or the like, but have you shoot anything of that price range? Do you even know why they command those prices new? Because it is hand made. My wife loves her Blazer because it is smooth. It does not shoot faster or more accurately than anything else out there. It may be argued that because it is smoother, a player may keep paint in a tighter area when shooting a string, but that brings us to player skill, not that the marker is that much better.

The Spyder Cup. Ha, I am guessing that you don't understand what that was. It was a marketing campaign. It was backed by a major company, Kingman, and required you to play only with Spyders. You could not use a clone, or any other blowback, because Kingman wanted you to buy their products. Yes, members of Dynasty were allowed to forgo their marker sponsorship and use Spyders (VS2's if I remember correctly) to play in one of them. But if you notice, it didn't last long. Three years if I remember correctly. They didn't make enough off of Spyder sales to continue doing it. And what with first place for one year being three brand new Mitsubishi Spyder Eclipse's, go figure that it was costly to them. That is why Bud and Tom didn't do it.

He'll go one step further and look at Bad Company shooting Kingman stuff, and Tippmann Effect with Tippmann stuff. More like they modified their stff to shoot something else in those bodies. Like BC Spimmies and TE 98's that were shoehorned Matrixes.

Seriously, don't narrowly define the markers. Yeah, that is laughable, using that term when talking about blowbacks. But open it up. Allow people to shoot Cockers, Mags, A-5's and X-7's. if you want, limit it to hopperball, and limit that even further to 200 rounds or less. But allow people to play with a Rotor on their Spyder, or Cocker, or Mag. You can have defined classes depending upon experience, not being religious to a marker style. Let those who played back in the day, and didn't keep playing because electros dominated everything, dust off the old Mags and Cockers, and get in on the fun.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:48 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ta2maki View Post
Why are you so stuck on high end or low end, or having operating systems excluded? It like complaining how you can't race your vintage Ferrari in a Mustang spec race and you have to buy a Ford. An old Ferrari isn't going to have a performance advantage, but still is not allowed.
Agreed. This is an idea. Let's discuss ways to make it work within the idea and potential problems. The proof will be in the pudding. Maybe this will work. Maybe it won't.

I think we have all objected to the "blow-backs only" concept enough that the OP understands our concerns.
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:04 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Im gonna bring out my ICD Alley Cat Never could get that thing to not bounce lol
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:19 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
I have to agree with Lohman446, in that we are not your target audience. You want the kids or adults who just got into this, we certainly are far from that audience. Even the newest person to paintball, on this board, is not your target audience.
You're not really reading what I'm writing. I'm bouncing the idea off of this forum because the membership is more "mature", and might (maybe) see the benefit of moving some new players into tourney play. OR might (maybe) enjoy a lower-cost form of play that is between pump and all-out unlimited play.

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Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
Now, in regards to your questions, I would allow a person with a pneumatic operation system play in a mech tourney, because it is still a mech.
But an Ion isn't, even if Billy mode is only one ball per two seconds. It isn't a mech. But why not allow an eNMy? It is a mech marker. Oh but wait, it isn't a blowback, so it is better than a Spyder or a Tippmann. Honestly, that is what you are saying. That a Cocker, Mag, or anything else is better than a Spyder, Tippmann, or any of their clones.
You keep saying "better than X". I'm not talking better. I'm not talking worse. I'm talking different. Not Mech... One segment of Mech. Much as my 1991-vintage Rebline does not qualify for "Stock Class". It may not be "Better" than a Phantom Stock, but it's different - it's not a Stock gun, so I can't use it in a Stock event. Should someone start a "Mech League" I imagine the eNMy will be used by many players (it looks like a very nice little gun).

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
BTW, have you shot the Phantom Revolution? Or whatever it is called? You know, a semi that you have to pump to feed paint into the chamber? If the NPPL, or PSP, or whoever allows that as a pump, does that mean that they are not purist enough? You can pull the trigger semi-auto, but it won't fire a paintball without you pumping it to drop one in place.
Nope. Don't much care to. My old Rebline and Razorback work in a similar manner - you can pull the trigger as much as you want, but it won't shoot a ball without pumping. If NPPL/PSP/whoever allows that gun in their Pump or Stock class events, cool. I am sure people will buy it and enjoy using it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
Honestly, I didn't spend more than $150 on my wife's Blazer, my Typhoon, or my Super Stocker.
Good on ya! Everyone loves a deal. But now it's only three times as much as a Spyder, for little to no improvement in performance (according to you, anyway - I would disagree).

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Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
I'm not saying that anyone who spends $400-700 on new Palmers stuff is stupid or the like, but have you shoot anything of that price range?
Yes, several. They are very nice.

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Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
Do you even know why they command those prices new? Because it is hand made.
Don't care. Would you buy a hand-made Spyder-clone for around $300? Palmer guns command that price because people actually pay it. If no one bought one of Mr. Palmer's guns for a few months, the prices would drop. If the prices dropped to where he could no longer make a profit, production would stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
My wife loves her Blazer because it is smooth. It does not shoot faster or more accurately than anything else out there. It may be argued that because it is smoother, a player may keep paint in a tighter area when shooting a string, but that brings us to player skill, not that the marker is that much better.
I'm beginning to wonder if you have ever played with Blow-back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
The Spyder Cup. Ha, I am guessing that you don't understand what that was. It was a marketing campaign.
You guessed wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
It was backed by a major company, Kingman, and required you to play only with Spyders. You could not use a clone, or any other blowback, because Kingman wanted you to buy their products. Yes, members of Dynasty were allowed to forgo their marker sponsorship and use Spyders (VS2's if I remember correctly) to play in one of them. But if you notice, it didn't last long. Three years if I remember correctly. They didn't make enough off of Spyder sales to continue doing it. And what with first place for one year being three brand new Mitsubishi Spyder Eclipse's, go figure that it was costly to them. That is why Bud and Tom didn't do it.

He'll go one step further and look at Bad Company shooting Kingman stuff, and Tippmann Effect with Tippmann stuff. More like they modified their stff to shoot something else in those bodies. Like BC Spimmies and TE 98's that were shoehorned Matrixes.

Seriously, don't narrowly define the markers. Yeah, that is laughable, using that term when talking about blowbacks.
So... Blow-backs are laughable, but no other mech gun is really any better... I admit to being confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
But open it up. Allow people to shoot Cockers, Mags, A-5's and X-7's. if you want, limit it to hopperball, and limit that even further to 200 rounds or less. But allow people to play with a Rotor on their Spyder, or Cocker, or Mag. You can have defined classes depending upon experience, not being religious to a marker style. Let those who played back in the day, and didn't keep playing because electros dominated everything, dust off the old Mags and Cockers, and get in on the fun.
So, it's okay to limit things, as long as they are your limits. If the point is limited-paint hopper-ball, why limit it any further? Just "open to all markers". Bring your mech, electro, pump, bow, slingshot, whatever.

You keep harping on "Too Many Limits". I keep mentioning "Stock Class", and you seem to pretend that that is not the most limited form of play, and yet people play it - with surprisingly expensive markers at that.

Let me fail miserably (my own expected outcome). When I do, tell me you told me so (because you have). In the mean time, post a new thread about "Limited Paint Mech Tourney". You want it - you go do it. Make it happen.
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Last edited by ironnerd88; 11-26-2012 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:30 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TFrevold View Post
Im gonna bring out my ICD Alley Cat Never could get that thing to not bounce lol
If you're using a syphon tank, turn the recock screw all the way in.
Reduce Main Spring tension
Close recock screw and open 1/4 turn at a time until the gun functions normally.

Basic setup is:
Mainspring screw flush with end plug.
velocity screw closed, then turn back 2.5 to 3 turns.
recock screw closed, then opened 1 turn.
(worked for mine)
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:37 PM   #106 (permalink)
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id hafta dig thru my crawl space to get it I think i havnt used it in 15 years :P
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:38 PM   #107 (permalink)
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^^^
In that case, it may need a drop or two of oil...
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:41 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post
Also, even in the days before agitator hoppers, 'Mags and 'Cockers had advantages over blow-backs. The blowback is a simple, inexpensive, common platform with known limitations if BPS, accuracy, efficiency, and reliability - this puts all the players on a fairly even starting point (as far as equipment).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post

Tell ya what I'll do for you'se guys. Once I get my HPA tank back from the SCUBA shop (Paintball tank? Is it...full of paint?) I'll load up the 'Fox and T-cat with a standard hopper and see if there is any difference just off the back porch. My suspicion is that the T-cat will actually feed better (the Fox is smoother and thus has less "Self Agitation" than the T-cat) - but I'll test it out and see what happens. Anybody else with two kinds of guns is welcome to give the same test a go.
I took your advice on making a video for you with my rebel bottomline vs my classic automag. There is no really huge difference between the two, besides the rebel sounding five times as loud. You can see the video here. If you're going for just blowback markers only, that's fine it doesn't bother me. If your not including classic automags because they are "superior", that I have issue with.
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:51 PM   #109 (permalink)
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I was, at first, a little at odds with the OPs proposal. However, now that it has been specifically defined as a blow-back league, with better defined rules, I can accept it. And I would probably participate, even not currently owning an acceptable marker.

PPS owners have their Palmer's game, same with Mags. And there was a "Cockers vs. the world" game not too long ago. Not to mention pump days. I can see where he is coming from.
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:52 PM   #110 (permalink)
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NICE Video. I still prefer a Blow-back league, but this video is an excellent argument for a more open series.

Now we just need to put a target out there and check the groupings.

I've stated why I prefer the chosen platform. It is a compromise. It's "Common", it's readily available, and several companies still make new ones. I guess it's like "NASCAR" - those guys are all supposed to be driving nearly-identical cars (they're not, but that's the theory) and it makes for some really good racing.
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Last edited by ironnerd88; 11-26-2012 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Found a few minutes to finish the thought
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