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Old 11-29-2012, 07:28 PM   #151 (permalink)
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Race to 2 instead of 3?
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:25 PM   #152 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post
I like round-robin because it lets every team play everyone else in their bracket. I mean, with 10 teams you play 45 sets of 3+ games. That's a lot of paintball! But with 5 teams you go from 45 sets to 10 sets. Still plenty-o-paintball, but much more manageable.

I had figured that the winner of each bracket would then go to an elimination championship. BUT having several divisions is also pretty cool (I'll admit that it is a better idea).

So IF (big if) we get 20 teams, that means 5 brackets of 4 teams. Once the round Robin is complete (6 sets per bracket), it goes to four divisions A, B, C, and D. Each division then plays another round-robin series of 6 sets.

With 20 teams (which I really doubt), playing once a week each, we'll have 3 months (12 weeks) of league play.

My target field (they have no idea I'm pondering this) has a minimum requirement of 10 players in order to open the field during the week - so 4 teams (or three teams and a "trainer") OR a $300 minimum. Okay... stay with me now. The field won't lose any money (in theory). They want 10 "Rental" players, and they rent A blow-back, with a grav hopper, a tank, a mask, and a harness with three 100-ball pods (sound familiar?). AND the other fields in this area have basically the same rental setup.

Now... If you have to play 12 weeks, that's $360+paint (unless we can convince them to use the birthday party pricing, which would knock $60 off of that...). OR $7,200 (plus paint revenue) for the field over the three month period...

Okay, that makes the field owner happy, but not the players...

I really want my tank back from Hydro so I can go play...
What about refs? Typically, local tourneys are put on by a team that helps them get some funds for regional or national tournaments. If you don't have a team looking to get in on this, the field will have to supply refs. One or two isn't going to cut it in a tournament. Maybe ask the field owner if they have any local teams that they sponsor that can help with ref duties.

As to cost, from a team perspective, you might be a bit off. My thought being that if they require 10 players, or 300, and you have 12 players, for four teams, that would be closer to $90 per team, per night that they play. Plus paint, if they don't add that in.

Mind you, this is purely the fields part, and if this works out, you may need to go longer than 12 weeks. Trying to put some numbers, let's say that you get 16 teams. Means that they get split into four divisions of four teams each, Keeping A, B, C, and D. That means that each division plays three times during the league. I would imagine that you may want to have an overall winner. You can do something like top team from each division plays one night for the win (Keeping your four teams), or maybe take the top two teams per division, and have Semi Finals, like top teams play one another, 2nd place teams play one another, or some other method, then Finals.and I think that you talked about minimal prizes, but you may need to charge teams a bit more, and offer something like medallions.

Overall, price and frequency of play is going to be determined by the number of teams.

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Race to 2 instead of 3?
Agreed, best 2 out of 3 games.
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:30 PM   #153 (permalink)
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Warning: Really long post

The example field supplies refs for daily play as part of the $300 minimum, and they have proven adequate for 10+ players of widely varied and mixed ability and equipment on the same "speedball" field. It should be easier for them to follow six guys (should). However, it may be a good idea to allow (encourage) players to ref games that are not in their own Pool (to knock a few dollars off their field fees – or earn some free paint).

Whether the teams play “Race to 2” or “Race to 3” won’t change the number of matches, it will only change the amount of paint sold by the field owner, and how long each match takes to play out. So, yeah, “Best of Three Series” is fine with me, because I would like to keep this all rather short and sweet. Keep reading to see how that works out.

For Round-Robin style play, every team plays every other team in their pool. Given than “N” is the number of teams in a division, the number of matches played in a Round-Robin Tournament is (N-1)*(N/2). So for pools of 4 teams, we play 6 matches, pools of 5 teams play 10 matches. In the interest of keeping things short and sweet, I would opt for 4 teams per pool.

The nice thing about Round-Robin is that everyone gets to play more paintball and it guarantees a certain level of participation for the field owner ($300 minimum = 4 teams of 3.) Of course this assumes 4 teams of 3 RENTERS… If they all have their own equipment, they still pay the $30, but the field puts the remainder into Refs, field upgrades, maybe a prize or two (in this instance, we’re talking about $2,400…)

After the 6-match “regular season” it might not be a bad idea to switch to Single-Elimination. For Single-Elimination, the formula is Log2*N so each with 4 pools of teams there would be 2 games, and for 5 pools there would be 3 games.

Obviously, if only one match is played per night, this will all take forever, and cost players an exorbitant amount of money. So, figuring a best of 3 match, and about 10 minutes per game (including between-game activities), in a three hour period, you could run maybe 15 games or 5 matches (probably more since most matches will not last the full 5 minute game time take the full 3 games to win). So an entire Pool of four teams could probably be run in one night with time for chrony and stuff.

So let’s run through this. We’ll assume 20 teams, broken down into five pools of four teams.
Week One: Pool 1 plays
Week Two: Pool 2 plays
Week Three: Pool 3 plays
Week Four: Pool 4 play
Week Five: Pool 5 plays



The Team with the best record from each pool would be placed into the “A” division. Second place teams in “B”, third in “C”, forth in “D”, and fifth in “E”.

This ends the Round-Robin preliminaries. Now we switch to Single-Elimination “Finals” (three matches each).






Week Six: Division “E” and “D” Finals
Week Seven: Division “C” and “B” Finals
Week Eight: Division “A” Finals


During the Round-Robin preliminaries, it is possible for ties to occur. In this case there would be a “sudden death” tie-breaker game. The two tied teams would play a single 5-minute game to break the tie. In the unlikely event that every team wins a single game there would be 4 such tie-breakers.
Sooo… Each player would end up spending about $60 in field fees, and some more on paint, and plays two days of paintball. The field owner would get about $3,600 in field fees over the ten week period, plus some paint sales.

So, what to do after your team is eliminated? Well, you could watch the other teams play, or… Grab one ref and go play for fun on one of the other fields (and burn up some more paint).
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:19 PM   #154 (permalink)
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Don't forget time between matches. Now if everyone is playing hopperball, less of an issue. But if pods are involved, either players are going to take time to retrieve their pods, or someone else will go and retrieve them. Plan on only 5 minutes per game, not 10. Honestly, it is 3 man, so what happens if 4 players get eliminated during the first 4 minutes, and they are noob teams? Everyone gets to simply stand around for 6 minutes while the new players are too concerned about making that mistake to lose the point, that it stalemates. So consider 5 minute games, one minute to collect pods, and maybe bet the next two teams out there to play, while the first two are reloading and such. There won't be a drag. Dedicate around 45 minutes per double match, meaning teams 1 and 2 are a match, 3 and 4 are a match, and give yourself enough time. Might not need it all, but then everyone can do some open play at the end, time permitting.

Think about this with the field ref. if the field supplies one ref, typical for your size, he is going to not only have to start and stop the games, but do any paint checks. All it takes is for a team to realize that the only set of eyes keeping them honest is involved in a 10 second paint check, and they may make the game winning move (Moving when they shouldn't, wiping, etc), and your league may be done before it really gets going. Having another team ref is okay, but really, what are they going to get out of it? Free entry or paint has to come out of someone's pocket, like yours or the field owners, unless you charge extra to cover this.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:39 PM   #155 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post
Obviously, if only one match is played per night, this will all take forever, and cost players an exorbitant amount of money. So, figuring a best of 3 match, and about 10 minutes per game (including between-game activities), in a three hour period, you could run maybe 15 games or 5 matches (probably more since most matches will not last the full 5 minute game time take the full 3 games to win). So an entire Pool of four teams could probably be run in one night with time for chrony and stuff.
It was kinda burried in there...

Each game is 5 minutes with up to five minutes between for reset and reload. Two minutes between games seems fair and reasonable.

I left something out. "After each game, teams switch ends of field." To help balance out differences in the field from one end to the other.

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Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
Think about this with the field ref. if the field supplies one ref, typical for your size, he is going to not only have to start and stop the games, but do any paint checks. All it takes is for a team to realize that the only set of eyes keeping them honest is involved in a 10 second paint check, and they may make the game winning move (Moving when they shouldn't, wiping, etc), and your league may be done before it really gets going. Having another team ref is okay, but really, what are they going to get out of it? Free entry or paint has to come out of someone's pocket, like yours or the field owners, unless you charge extra to cover this.
A good point, and I think we're close to the same sheet of music - or at least we're at the same concerto.

The basic $30 fee at the field in question includes the following:
Tippmann M98
200 ball hopper
Air tank
Mask
Harness with three 100 pods
500 paintballs.

IF, you bring your own equipment, you would normally pay $10 (this fee is waived if you buy 500 paintballs at $15). But the League fee is $30/night, so for every guy who brings his own equipment, the field gets an extra $15, which may be used for things like additional referees, reduced field fees for volunteer refs, or incentive paint. And, honestly, most guys will want to bring their own gun/mas/tank/and the like (if replies on this thread are any indication). So, in a way, I am charging more to cover refs.

Conversely, the field would have to charge $30 per player, and require everyone to help referee games outside their pool - or charge $45 per game day per player (an extra 50%) to pay for more refs. That can be negotiated.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:46 PM   #156 (permalink)
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Well, I guess I can allow A5's with these: [LINK]
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:42 PM   #157 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post
The basic $30 fee at the field in question includes the following:
Tippmann M98
200 ball hopper
Air tank
Mask
Harness with three 100 pods
500 paintballs.

IF, you bring your own equipment, you would normally pay $10 (this fee is waived if you buy 500 paintballs at $15). But the League fee is $30/night, so for every guy who brings his own equipment, the field gets an extra $15, which may be used for things like additional referees, reduced field fees for volunteer refs, or incentive paint. And, honestly, most guys will want to bring their own gun/mas/tank/and the like (if replies on this thread are any indication). So, in a way, I am charging more to cover refs.

Conversely, the field would have to charge $30 per player, and require everyone to help referee games outside their pool - or charge $45 per game day per player (an extra 50%) to pay for more refs. That can be negotiated.
I thought that you said, for anything other than a normal day, they need $300 for the first 10 people? Regardless whether people have their own gear or not?
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:21 AM   #158 (permalink)
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I'd love to have a mech league around here - Gravity feed loader, no electronics at all, single trigger marker (one pull one shot, no pneumatic assist, no reactive trigger).
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:36 AM   #159 (permalink)
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skimmed the thread. This reminds me of the Pan Am league. Anyone remember that?
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:53 AM   #160 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
I thought that you said, for anything other than a normal day, they need $300 for the first 10 people? Regardless whether people have their own gear or not?
Yup. It's $300 to open the field. So 10 renters at $30 (normally). Under normal circumstances, they wound need between 15 and 20 players with their own equipment (it depends on whether the players bring their own paint or not). Before you go to far with that last thought, any "League Play" would require FIELD PAINT ONLY. Kind of as a way to throw the field owner a bone, everyone would be charged the same $30, rental or own equipment. So we're still talking $300 for ten players. That $10-$15 for each guy with his own equipment goes for Refs and stuff.

Think of it like this, Everyone pays $30 per day to use the field. Rentals are free (or at a reduced price - negotiable) to get a few NEWBIES hooked... Or remove the "I'm not buyin' a crappy blow-back just to play in this stupid league," excuse. OR to give a guy a way to keep playing in the event of a mechanical issue with his gun.

I believe that most participants will bring their own gun at the very least, so the field will get $15 (+/-) per participant who bring his own stuff. Now, that $30 only buys you 500 paintballs, which I am pretty sure they players will go through in just a game or two, so the field owner will also have some paint sale profit to add to his bottom line.

The down-side... EVERYONE rents guns... Then we'll need some volunteer refs (parents? ).


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Originally Posted by CentCam View Post
skimmed the thread. This reminds me of the Pan Am league. Anyone remember that?
Whoa! I DO remember Pan-Am. Thanks for reminding me! Kind of a cool event - and there are similarities.

[Da Rules]

I'm not a super-huge fan of "Points Systems", but I can see why they would be useful. I like the simple Capture the flag/elimination system - It's like boxing, anyone can tell who won the boxing match.

I also like their "Young Guns" classification (limited to 100 paintballs/game). Interesting that this tournament ran for three(?) years and was basically "Hopperball" (200 ball/player limit for 5-man teams, 500 ball/player for ten-man teams).

The idea of 3-man teams with 500 paintballs per player has been bugging me. Seems a little high for this kind of League play. But... It is also "best of three" matches, so 500 paintballs over a three-game series does not sound too bad at all. So, once step onto the field, you don't get any more paint until someone wins the match.
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