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Old 12-01-2012, 09:00 AM   #161 (permalink)
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Not a fan of single elimination. I know its on another day but that means you get a team together and travel for what might be two games. It would be fine if it were tacked onto the end of the day I was already there and had played a bunch of games but I am not travelling to a day of paintball that only gaurentees me two games.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:48 AM   #162 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post
"Blow-Back Cup"? (BBC)

I gotta agree with Axel - the total equipment cost for the BBC is less than the cost of a case of paint --- and players will use less paint than in a "Screamin' Space-gun" tourney --- which should help offset the inconvenience of having to buy (or borrow, or rent, or just fix up) a Blow-Back.

Something that has been mentioned is that current tournament players may not want to partake of an event with so many tech restrictions. This is a patently false argument as there are pump events in both NPPL and PSP, and stock play enjoys a fairly healthy following. On the other hand, the guys who love high-rate electro play may choose not to avail themselves of the BBC - that's okay, they already have their niche, and I have no interest in altering it in any way (they seem happy).

It does not matter where the line is drawn, it will make some unhappy. The restriction against the use of Auto-triggers in stock is a good example. As I've said, I put the line where I did for a bunch of reasons. Would I ever be able to actually pull this off? No clue! But it may be my New-Year's resolution. Wost case: BBC never gets off the ground, but have an excuse to play at more fields in the ATL (we have many, and they are pretty nice).

WARNING: TOPIC DRIFT!!!
Now, for youse guys what wanna play with 'mags, 'cockers, an' whatnot...

Idea: Have teams made up of players using exclusively one marker (all mag, all cocker, all blazer, all Desert Fox, Sovereign... etc.) They play other teams using the same equip until you end up with "Best in class". Then the top teams from each class compete until there is a "Best in Event" gun type. Add limitations to taste (limited paint, gravity only, non-agitator hopper, whatever). It would sure be one heckova thing to watch! RABID fans!
Now go discuss this on another thread
Loving your topic drift. I think that would be an awesome format. Have an AC division an AM division a BB division etc
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:28 AM   #163 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
Not a fan of single elimination. I know its on another day but that means you get a team together and travel for what might be two games. It would be fine if it were tacked onto the end of the day I was already there and had played a bunch of games but I am not travelling to a day of paintball that only gaurentees me two games.
Hmmm... good point - forgot about "Travel Teams". And it's even worse than you say. Single elimination guarantees only ONE game... That has a high potential for "suck".

So the options are:
Another Round-Robin.
or
Double Elimination.

Either has the benefit of getting more money to the field owner buy making the season a little longer.

Of the two I would like to see another Round-Robin, simply because every team plays every other team, and then use single elimination for tie-breakers.

Would that be a bit more palatable to you'se guys?

I know that I expressed everything in "Weeks" but for the particularly hearty field crew, it could all be run in "DAYS".

It could be introduced as "whatever gun you want" League - but keep the hopper and paint limitations. If the league works out, add more divisions. Open, Mech, BB, Pump, Stock, and...

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Loving your topic drift. I think that would be an awesome format. Have an AC division an AM division a BB division etc
I think it would rock as well. We'll call it "Manufacturers Cup". You think your gun is the best... Now prove it!

Additionally - Young Guns, Adult, and Old Fart divisions (dreamin' huge, I know - but why not).

And for those who need to burn a LOT of paint in a short amount of time, "Unlimited League" .68 caliber paintballs at 300 fps. Outside of that, go for it. (yup... dreamin' super huge).

But for the record, I still think the goons with the blow-backs will have the most fun. I mean, how cocky and "punk kid" can you get with a mech blow-back...(eh... I'm sure someone will find a way).
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:34 PM   #164 (permalink)
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Yup. It's $300 to open the field. So 10 renters at $30 (normally). Under normal circumstances, they wound need between 15 and 20 players with their own equipment (it depends on whether the players bring their own paint or not). Before you go to far with that last thought, any "League Play" would require FIELD PAINT ONLY. Kind of as a way to throw the field owner a bone, everyone would be charged the same $30, rental or own equipment. So we're still talking $300 for ten players. That $10-$15 for each guy with his own equipment goes for Refs and stuff.

Think of it like this, Everyone pays $30 per day to use the field. Rentals are free (or at a reduced price - negotiable) to get a few NEWBIES hooked... Or remove the "I'm not buyin' a crappy blow-back just to play in this stupid league," excuse. OR to give a guy a way to keep playing in the event of a mechanical issue with his gun.

I believe that most participants will bring their own gun at the very least, so the field will get $15 (+/-) per participant who bring his own stuff. Now, that $30 only buys you 500 paintballs, which I am pretty sure they players will go through in just a game or two, so the field owner will also have some paint sale profit to add to his bottom line.

The down-side... EVERYONE rents guns... Then we'll need some volunteer refs (parents? ).



Whoa! I DO remember Pan-Am. Thanks for reminding me! Kind of a cool event - and there are similarities.

[Da Rules]

I'm not a super-huge fan of "Points Systems", but I can see why they would be useful. I like the simple Capture the flag/elimination system - It's like boxing, anyone can tell who won the boxing match.

I also like their "Young Guns" classification (limited to 100 paintballs/game). Interesting that this tournament ran for three(?) years and was basically "Hopperball" (200 ball/player limit for 5-man teams, 500 ball/player for ten-man teams).

The idea of 3-man teams with 500 paintballs per player has been bugging me. Seems a little high for this kind of League play. But... It is also "best of three" matches, so 500 paintballs over a three-game series does not sound too bad at all. So, once step onto the field, you don't get any more paint until someone wins the match.
Keep in mind that it is one thing for a field to accommodate a group when they are normally open, it's another to open up on days that they aren't normally open, to have a group. I can't speak for your particular fields, I only remember running mine. So if a field says $300 for 10 people, $30 per person for each person beyond that, and that gets them one ref, don't expect them to give you a deal because you are talking about doing this as a league night, once a week for X number of weeks. After all, what happens if you only get nine teams? A good idea would be to divide them up into three divisions of three teams. Meaning that only nine people are now paying the $300, not 12 paying $360. And if the opener is used to $300 for 10 people, from that, he is putting out 2 1/2 cases of paint, paying one ref, possibly paying a shack worker, and the use of the place, he does need to make money, so don't expect more from him while not giving him more.

Also, don't even think about getting parents or SO's to ref. if they aren't players, not that they have to play the league, but they need to play to understand what to look for and such, they aren't going to ref well, and that can destroy your league before it gets going. I have seen it happen.

Seriously, talk to you field owner about this, they may be able to help you out.

Oh, and Pan-Am was around for more than three years, but maybe five or six total. One thing about the 200 max per person, there was a way around that. Players would show up with 2 100 round pods, and everyone would immediately dump a pod into their hoppers. Then they would top off their hoppers, not using the full second pod. In the end, everyone had full hoppers, with one pod left (Remember, Revvies and Halos held around 180 paintballs each), so they had one back player who could lane for a moment, and still get a pod to top off.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:58 PM   #165 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post
Hmmm... good point - forgot about "Travel Teams". And it's even worse than you say. Single elimination guarantees only ONE game... That has a high potential for "suck".

So the options are:
Another Round-Robin.
or
Double Elimination.

Either has the benefit of getting more money to the field owner buy making the season a little longer.

Of the two I would like to see another Round-Robin, simply because every team plays every other team, and then use single elimination for tie-breakers.

Would that be a bit more palatable to you'se guys?
I like that better but then we come to another question. Say I field a team - myself and two other players who wanted to come for the first round.

Define team. That is when I show up with myself and two other players for the second round are we still the same team? Does a team need 3/3, 2/3, 1/3 players to be considered the same team?

What if I go and play with a couple new players and get third or fourth and the next time I show up with an extremely good player? In a three man one extremely good player can carry a team.
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"Use peaceful means where they are appropriate; but where they are not appropriate, do not hesitate to resort to more forceful - Thupten Gyatso (the Dalai Lama, 1932)

"It is not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters" Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant.

"The ink of scholars is more precious than the blood of martyrs" - Muhammed
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:18 PM   #166 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
Keep in mind that it is one thing for a field to accommodate a group when they are normally open, it's another to open up on days that they aren't normally open, to have a group. I can't speak for your particular fields, I only remember running mine. So if a field says $300 for 10 people, $30 per person for each person beyond that, and that gets them one ref, don't expect them to give you a deal because you are talking about doing this as a league night, once a week for X number of weeks. After all, what happens if you only get nine teams? A good idea would be to divide them up into three divisions of three teams. Meaning that only nine people are now paying the $300, not 12 paying $360. And if the opener is used to $300 for 10 people, from that, he is putting out 2 1/2 cases of paint, paying one ref, possibly paying a shack worker, and the use of the place, he does need to make money, so don't expect more from him while not giving him more.
The cost to participate would be $30/person/game at the example field - that price would change at different venues due to differences in local tax, operating costs, paint costs, etc.... The example field states that they must have a minimum of $300 to open the field. For 20 teams, he would get $3,600 (20x3=60 players. 60 players x $30 field fee =$1,800. Since there are preliminaries and Finals - it's $1,800x2 of $3,600) - not including paint sales beyond the initial 500/player. So for $30 a renter gets gun, mask, hopper, 500 paintballs, and pods. If every player brought his own equipment, he would normally pay $15 in field fees, but for the league he still pays $30, SO the $15 per player that would normally go to pay for rental equipment now goes in the field owner's pocket. Meaning if EVERYONE brought their own equipment, Freddie Fieldowner gets an extra $1,800 - and that's before he sells any paintballs - sold at about a 50% profit margin from what I have been able to dig up (it's a fair bet that even with the restricted hopper, these guys will go through the initial 500 balls pretty quickly).
[But then, does it really cost $15 to run a Tippmann 98 for three hours?]

Will it be enough? eh... We may need to charge a little more for the privilege of being in the league. Either way, the minimum limit for week-day play is a decent starting point.


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Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
Also, don't even think about getting parents or SO's to ref. if they aren't players, not that they have to play the league, but they need to play to understand what to look for and such, they aren't going to ref well, and that can destroy your league before it gets going. I have seen it happen.
I never really thought parents would really ref, or even stick around to watch their kids play. Again, (as I've mentioned a few times) this is negotiable.


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Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
Seriously, talk to you field owner about this, they may be able to help you out.
Will do. Working on the proposal and rules between postings.


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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
I like that better but then we come to another question. Say I field a team - myself and two other players who wanted to come for the first round.

Define team. That is when I show up with myself and two other players for the second round are we still the same team? Does a team need 3/3, 2/3, 1/3 players to be considered the same team?

What if I go and play with a couple new players and get third or fourth and the next time I show up with an extremely good player? In a three man one extremely good player can carry a team.
Your team is made up of the three players on your roster. Roster must be provided to referees prior to playing first game in first match. No changes to the roster are permitted (unless you can get the people running the league to agree to it).
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Last edited by ironnerd88; 12-01-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:00 PM   #167 (permalink)
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Your team is made up of the three players on your roster. Roster must be provided to referees prior to playing first game in first match. No changes to the roster are permitted (unless you can get the people running the league to agree to it).
I think most leagues allow for a couple of extras on the roster; seems like a reasonable solution. Perhaps a three-man team could have up to five slots on its roster.
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:59 PM   #168 (permalink)
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The cost to participate would be $30/person/game at the example field - that price would change at different venues due to differences in local tax, operating costs, paint costs, etc.... The example field states that they must have a minimum of $300 to open the field. For 20 teams, he would get $3,600 (20x3=60 players. 60 players x $30 field fee =$1,800. Since there are preliminaries and Finals - it's $1,800x2 of $3,600) - not including paint sales beyond the initial 500/player. So for $30 a renter gets gun, mask, hopper, 500 paintballs, and pods. If every player brought his own equipment, he would normally pay $15 in field fees, but for the league he still pays $30, SO the $15 per player that would normally go to pay for rental equipment now goes in the field owner's pocket. Meaning if EVERYONE brought their own equipment, Freddie Fieldowner gets an extra $1,800 - and that's before he sells any paintballs - sold at about a 50% profit margin from what I have been able to dig up (it's a fair bet that even with the restricted hopper, these guys will go through the initial 500 balls pretty quickly).
[But then, does it really cost $15 to run a Tippmann 98 for three hours?]

Will it be enough? eh... We may need to charge a little more for the privilege of being in the league. Either way, the minimum limit for week-day play is a decent starting point.


Your team is made up of the three players on your roster. Roster must be provided to referees prior to playing first game in first match. No changes to the roster are permitted (unless you can get the people running the league to agree to it).
You an do this one of a couple of ways: one fee, up front, for each team to play in the league, which encompasses three nights of play, Semi Finals, and Finals, plus 1500 rounds of paint each time. Basically $30 times 5 times of play, so $150 per person, or $450 per team. Now, this means that they role the dice with being able to play all five times, winning it all or not. If they make it to Finals, great, they got their money's worth. If not, and only did the three prelim days of play, well, hopefully they better next time. It is your choice if you want to give them the extra paint or not. And you don't give it to them all at once, you give them 1500 rounds at each time that they are there. The downside, that is $150 up front, probably more for paint at each time they play, and no guarantee of playing all five times. The upside, teams that pay will be there until they can't be there, meaning they didn't make the cut.

Also, the promoter, you, has money now for prizes, no matter what you do. Short of only four teams signing up.

Or they pay piece by piece. This means that the teams pay anywhere from one week to day of the games, and don't pay extra. On the plus side, teams may show you more interest. On the down side, you will probably have to pay the field out of pocket every week, and hope that people pay you on time, or by day of. Also, lack of a commitment by the players.

And no extra funds there for awards or prizes.

Personally, I think that a team should be that team all through the league. They can have up to four people, to act as a stand in if someone can't make it or gets hurt. Also players are on one team, and only one team for the league season. Otherwise, let us say that Lohman446 shows up with two different guys every time, and does well enough to get into Semi Finals, and then Finals. Someone, if not a few teams are going to be ticked if he gets to Finals, yet they didn't make it past prelims. Or if I play with two teams, yes, it will cost me more money, but what happens if both of my teams have to play one another in Semi's or Finals? One team is getting screwed, especially if they don't have an alternate.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:40 AM   #169 (permalink)
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I think payment up front would be preferred.

"Prizes" are basically transferable field passes. That way the field owner can still sell some paint when the recipient comes back to play some more paintball. I don't think there will be enough participation to warrant anything of great value, and the more valuable the prize, the more cheating and basic punkery you get.

Teams: You hand in a roster of three player plus one alternate (who may not be a player or alternate for any other team). He does not pay until he starts playing - otherwise he ends up paying to sit on his thumbs.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:53 PM   #170 (permalink)
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Honestly, I would not have the alternate pay. I would set a team price, and they pay it. If only three people are on the team, then they split it three ways, if four, then four ways. Let them figure out if they want to do three people with an alternate, or if they want to rotate who plays, like in game 1, #1, 2, and 3. Then in game 2, #2, 3, and 4. The funnier it is, the better people like it and not only want to continue, but tell others about it.
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